Two DLPs and Three Bear Attacks to date in Alaska This Season

Status
Not open for further replies.
+1, they see us, hear us and smell us much more often than the other way around. Take a look at what looks like a black bear stalking a man. I would much rather have a gun that can take care of him than pepper spray. The slow stalk is typical of predatory black bears. Which would you rather have?

Black bears in this situation are known to back off after the pepper spray but then engage the stalk again. If you only have one can of pepper spray, you are still in a world of trouble. On the other hand, who couldn't take this bear out even with a .22 LR as it slowly and deliberately approaches. This is the classic predatory black bear attack behavior. In these cases, lethal deterrence is your only option. Pepper spray just doesn't cut it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3a9zgzEgk


Ummm...yeah. Looks like the bone head stalked the black bear.....provoking him.

You apparently have a lot more experience than me. You kill black bears in thickets with lots of limbs and branches....with a .22lR.

As I stated, from my experience, bear spray + charging griz = me safe.

I'm sold.
 
Last edited:
Ummm...yeah. Looks like the bone head stalked the black bear.....provoking him.

You apparently have a lot more experience than me. You kill black bears in thickets with lots of limbs and branches....with a .22lR.

As I stated, from my experience, bear spray + charging griz = me safe.

I'm sold.
No, actually these two videos demonstrate the classic predatory black bear behavior of slow, silent and persistent stalking of their victims. Grizzly are not the only critters in the woods the last time I checked. Not sure where you believe the "bone head" provoked the bear. I guess just being in the woods was enough.

In the situation of a predatory black bear, pepper spray is only a temporizing solution and in many cases documented, the black bear will return. If you don't have lethal force as an option, you could be in a world of hurt.

Recent studies show that predatory black bears cause the majority of black bear attacks, a finding that was not expected. They exhibit a specific pattern of behavior according to Dr. Stephen Herroro. The slow, silent stalking behavior is what you need to look for exactly as demonstrated in both of these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7yoIheOrTc

As far as the .22LR remark, yes, I would rather have a .22 LR as my defense over a sharp stick as these folks demonstrated. A well placed aimed shot at close range with a slow moving black bear has the potential to drop them in their tracks and is a much better option than a stick. Since brown bears have been killed with a .22 LR, I am not making an outrageous statement. Simply put, if you are in the woods, take your dedicated woods gun what ever it is with you. My woods gun is a .44 magnum Ruger SRH so the .22 LR is not at all an endorsement of a woods gun, but clearly better than a stick.

Lastly, the bear spray studies vs bullets are quite flawed by exclusion of every incident which of course is not possible. Not all bear encounters are reported. In the two videos above with the slow, silent black bear stalking a person, give me my .44 magnum every time in that situation over pepper spray. In addition, I believe you have a duty to kill a bear that is acting in that manner instead of driving them off to attack another person.

There is a very sad case in Canada a few years ago where two men encountered an aggressive black bear and drove it off only to find out that a couple were attacked and the wife killed shortly after that by a black bear believed to be the same individual bear. Bears exhibiting this type of behavior should be shot on sight not only for your protection, but the next person that they will encounter who is not prepared. Any bear that will stalk a person should quickly be a dead bear. What if the next person this bear encounters is your wife and kids? Now how would you look upon the situation demonstrated in these two videos?
 
Last edited:
No, actually these two videos demonstrate the classic predatory black bear behavior of slow, silent and persistent stalking of their victims. Grizzly are not the only critters in the woods the last time I checked. I never said that they were the only critters in the woods. I can honestly say if I had my choice....the slow stalk of a black bear is preferred to the explosive charge of a grizzly.

Not sure where you believe the "bone head" provoked the bear. I guess just being in the woods was enough. I consider walking towards a bear in the woods with a camera as the ultimate in bone head moves. Darwin theory at work.

In the situation of a predatory black bear, pepper spray is only a temporizing solution and in many cases documented, the black bear will return. If you don't have lethal force as an option, you could be in a world of hurt.If it stops the initial attack (as with my bear) that works for me. I can make plans for my escape. I never, ever said to leave your weapons at home...just that in my experience the spray worked...especially since there wasn't going to be a one shot kill with my S&W 460. You sure as hell have to be a lot more accurate with the pistol...if you can get a shot off...than with the spray.

Recent studies show that predatory black bears cause the majority of black bear attacks, a finding that was not expected. They exhibit a specific pattern of behavior according to Dr. Stephen Herroro. The slow, silent stalking behavior is what you need to look for exactly as demonstrated in both of these videos. I find it interesting that you mention Professor Herroro. He is the leading bear biologist at the University of Calgary. He is one of the leading proponents of the use of bear spray and has collected data that collaberates his beliefs in it's effectivity.

Bear Spray Effectivity



As far as the .22LR remark, yes, I would rather have a .22 LR as my defense over a sharp stick as these folks demonstrated. No kidding. Your statement was "who couldn't take this bear out with a 22LR?" A well placed aimed shot at close range with a slow moving black bear has the potential to drop them in their tracks and is a much better option than a stick. Since brown bears have been killed with a .22 LR, I am not making an outrageous statement. Simply put, if you are in the woods, take your dedicated woods gun what ever it is with you. My woods gun is a .44 magnum Ruger SRH so the .22 LR is not at all an endorsement of a woods gun, but clearly better than a stick.Again....no sh*t.

Lastly, the bear spray studies vs bullets are quite flawed by exclusion of every incident which of course is not possible. Agreed......though the incidences that are reported favor the use of spray.Not all bear encounters are reported. In the two videos above with the slow, silent black bear stalking a person, give me my .44 magnum every time in that situation over pepper spray. In addition, I believe you have a duty to kill a bear that is acting in that manner instead of driving them off to attack another person.

There is a very sad case in Canada a few years ago where two men encountered an aggressive black bear and drove it off only to find out that a couple were attacked and the wife killed shortly after that by a black bear believed to be the same individual bear. Bears exhibiting this type of behavior should be shot on sight not only for your protection, but the next person that they will encounter who is not prepared. Any bear that will stalk a person should quickly be a dead bear. What if the next person this bear encounters is your wife and kids? I love this part. Thanks for the chuckle.Now how would you look upon the situation demonstrated in these two videos?

I hunt,fish, and shoot competitively...have for many years. I know that if a big critter in the woods catches me by suprise that I am not going to be able to draw and kill said critter with the time alloted. I try to leave the macho hunter crap at home. I have been in bear country many times over the years. I finally was in a situation where my life was potentially in danger. I reacted fairly calmly (neither of us needed new undies) and went home safely. The bear's reaction to the bear spray was immediate and extremely effective. I plan on using this approach on my next trip into bear country. Carry a big "stick" (S&W 460 or 500) but lead with the spray.

BOS
 
Last edited:
Well fair enough, glad it gave you chuckle.:banghead: Jacky Perry and her husband didn't find the situation very funny after another camping group had an encounter with the same bear. She ended up dead and her husband tried to valiantly fight the bear off with a Swiss Army knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br373JIsQWY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70Pxh-pCWw

In any case, pepper spray is NOT the only option and as stated before, I would much rather have a .22 LR than pepper spray in the cases mentioned above. Nevertheless, living in Northern Idaho, my woods gun is not a .22 LR, it is a .44 magnum and yes I do consider pepper spray part of that plan as well. However, I am under no illusions that pepper spray is all that is needed.

In any case, glad I gave you a chuckle since that was not my intention.:banghead:

Lastly, you admit the data is flawed but make no correction for those potential flaws and limitations. If you want to go with that, fair enough, that is your option. For me, I don't go anywhere in the woods without a minimum of a .357 with me with large hardcast bullets.
 
I hunt,fish, and shoot competitively...have for many years. I know that if a big critter in the woods catches me by suprise that I am not going to be able to draw and kill said critter with the time alloted. I try to leave the macho hunter crap at home. I have been in bear country many times over the years. I finally was in a situation where my life was potentially in danger. I reacted fairly calmly (neither of us needed new undies) and went home safely. The bear's reaction to the bear spray was immediate and extremely effective. I plan on using this approach on my next trip into bear country. Carry a big "stick" (S&W 460 or 500) but lead with the spray.

BOS
Dear BrainOnSigs,

I don't believe you are understanding my point on pepper spray vs bullets. I am not at all contending that pepper spray and even pepper spray first is not a viable option. I am instead pointing out that the data is flawed and unable to discern definitively that pepper spray is better than bullets. The type of study can only present the question but it cannot answer the question. The only manner following the scientific method to answer whether pepper spray is better than bullets is to perform a randomized and controlled experiment comparing the two options.

Obviously, that will never happen, but retrospective anecdotal case samplings can only present the question, but not answer the question. I remain skeptical that pepper spray is ALWAYS the better option. I have presented two videos showing typical predatory black bear behavior that I would contend is met best by high powered large bore bullets first and that pepper spray in that situation should be second line bear defense. The data is that for black bears exhibiting that behavior, pepper spray will not stop their stalk.

Secondly, predatory black bear behavior places others at risk if you are able to deter them with pepper spray. What about the next person in the next campsite?

Take a look at the case of Jacky Perry who was killed about 30 minutes after a black bear confronted another group of people. It took place in Canada. If bears exhibiting predatory stalking behavior were recognized as a risk and people shot them instead of driving them away, this is a case where a young woman at the beginning of her marriage and career as a doctor could have been saved.

Ontario Provincial Police said Dr. Jacqueline Perry, 31, and Marc Jordan, 30, were mauled during a camping trip.

"While the bear was attacking the female, the male managed to stab it a few times with a knife," police Const. Karen Farand told The Canadian Press.

Jordan was flown to a Sudbury, Ont. hospital suffering from severe lacerations. He was expected to require surgery and was listed in serious but stable condition Wednesday.

The black bear had confronted two other men on a hike, Vitas Abrutis and his son, Rytis, shortly before the fatal attack but they were able to fend it off.

Rytis Abrutis heard Jordan's screams about a half hour later.

"We see this guy on a canoe coming toward us screaming "Help, help!"," said Rytis.

Both men helped get Jordan and his wife's body out of the canoe.

"I saw the guy real bloody and he told me there's a dead woman inside. She was really badly injured. You could see real deep injuries," said Vitas.

Due to the remote location, it took rescuers more than an hour to reach the victims, police said.

"That area takes approximately at least an hour or more to get to, plus there was a 10-kilometre boat ride to the area," Farand told CP.

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20050908/bear_attack_ontario_050907?hub=CP24Sports655
 
Ok, so once again the pissing contest merry-go-round we go

Bear spray has certain ADVANTAGES (and please note, as far as I have read it's not the end all cure all)

Rather, with spray, you avoid the F&G colonoscopy, you have CONE of effect, meaning that you have a much wider area of effect and are therefore more likely to get the bear with LESS training etc. etc. etc.

it has down sizes - it may not work (and neither are guns guaranteed)
it is sustainably to moderate to high wind, it can and will blow back or over spray (but I'd rather get peppersprayed than shot if a bear on me)
it ages and then brown bears find the patch an attractant.

But see, guns have downsides TOO
you have to aim them, and are MUCH more difficult to hit with
you may or may not have a round that can penetrate the angle you are shooting.
F&G will be all in your 4th point of contact. etc. etc.

but you have range, wind doesn't effect your ability to use it etc.

As I said there are comparative advantages and disadvantages to each.
Lately, when I go out, I'm with my passel of little kids, I'm on developed trails, which does, to some extent decrease the likelihood of an encounter (human traffic and scent) but means when you do encounter a bear, most likely it's somewhat used to people.

I expect to have to shoot over the heads of at least ONE of my boys, I expect to have my other arm occupied, I expect the encounter range to be SHORT, and that most likely one of my boys will be closer. I don't expect a clean shot.We do the usually stuff, we are loud etc. But if it we do hit a bear, we are screwed, the question is how bad.
 
Dear Shadow7D,

No one is disputing the benefits of bear spray. Instead, I am contending the now wide spread myth that pepper sprays is ALWAYS the best option. I have used the example of predatory black bear encounters to demonstrate this issue.

Why the big debate of pepper spray vs guns when the the answer is take both!! For my wife who is recoil intolerant and yet to shoot anything beyond a .22 LR, pepper spray is her best protection. For me, yes, pepper spray is an option, but I am not going to leave my gun at home for the pepper spray.

It is a ridiculous argument. The only bear expert who gets it right in my mind is James Gary Shelton who states, take both. In addition, the pepper spray vs guns debate is clouded by the entire environmental wacko movement that prefers the survival of bears over people in a bear encounter. Since the data is limited, the debate of pepper spray vs guns is an unanswerable debate that no one can give conclusive evidence since the evidence does not exist.

Read James Gary Shelton and take his advice and put it into practice. He teaches shooting challenges with moving targets and also tells his folks to take the pepper spray as well. Since neither pepper spray or guns is 100% taking both is the best option.
 
Dear Shadow7D,

It is a ridiculous argument. The only bear expert who gets it right in my mind is James Gary Shelton who states, take both. In addition, the pepper spray vs guns debate is clouded by the entire environmental wacko movement that prefers the survival of bears over people in a bear encounter. Since the data is limited, the debate of pepper spray vs guns is an unanswerable debate that no one can give conclusive evidence since the evidence does not exist.

Read James Gary Shelton and take his advice and put it into practice. He teaches shooting challenges with moving targets and also tells his folks to take the pepper spray as well. Since neither pepper spray or guns is 100% taking both is the best option.

I guess we are on the same page as I have stated that I always carry both...gun and spray. The situation would dictate on which method to deploy 1st. My buddy and I walked away unharmed from a pissed off griz sow encounter. The spray was the only option at that time. I saw 1st hand how effective it was in our scenario. I truly believe that if it was just me with my 460 then I wouldn't be typing this now.

Bottom line...add the bear spray to your arsenal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top