Two freaky AR15 stoppages

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DaisyCutter

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I was at my annual police qualification course a couple days ago, and I had 2 freak stoppages with my Stag lefty M4 clone.

Note, I've had several hundred rounds through this rifle over the past few years, and only one or two prior stoppages, which were both my error, from not fully inserting the mag.

These were different. (Note, rifle was clean, but hadn't been lubed in a month. I was firing Winchester white box practice ammo.)

The first, I'm banging away timed sets each time when the target turns, I hear a click (versus a boom), I cycle the bolt, and it fails to go into battery. I strip the mag, cycle the bolt a couple times, reinsert and cycle, and it fails to go into battery. I re-strip the mag, look into the chamber and I see a spent case in the chamber.

I cycle the bolt a few times, and the spent case won't come out.

The rifle in that condition wasn't able to finish the course of fire.


On the next course of fire (with freshly lubed rifle), I had another stoppage. A basic clearing drill fixed it. This time when I stripped the mag I saw a partially stripped unfired round with the bullet pushed back into the case. Powder was leaking out past it.


What gives.

I've never had a single mechanical stoppage with this rifle before.

My mags don't show any damage.

Do I chalk this up to TWO freak occurances, or is there something else bad here?

Maybe a bad crimp for number two? That one doesn't scare me so much.

The spend round that wouldn't extract freaks me out? What the heck? What do you do when you encounter this?

Note, I didn't get to inspect the case that was stuck. The armorer took the rifle and presumably pushed out the stuck case by inserting a rod from the muzzle end.


I fully expect my weapons to function through a training course without mechanical stoppages.

Can I chalk this up to the ammo? OR should I chalk this up to the ammo?
 
The extractor lip is getting dull or has dirt and or brass imbedded in the groove and slides off the case.

I never cared much for the WWB ammo. Too inconsistant.
 
This time when I stripped the mag I saw a partially stripped unfired round with the bullet pushed back into the case. Powder was leaking out past it.

This migth be the result of the round being slammed into a stuck, fired case left in your chamber. If so, both failures are extractor based. Check that first. Try cleaning you chamber too, if you haven't recently.
 
Well, as you stated, you have several hundred rounds through the rifle. Extractor springs/inserts and, to a lesser extent, the extractor itself are wear items. Although yours seem to be a bit short lived, it isn't out of the ordinary. Just be sure to replace them with quality replacements. It wouldn't be a bad idea to order another extractor and a few spring upgrade kits from Bravo Company. Their springs are so stiff and resilient that I don't even bother using the o-ring.

As for the bullet being pushed in, were you shooting hollow points? In any case, yes, I have seen that happen usually with non military ammunition that isn't crimped quite enough. I wouldn't sweat that.
 
Have you ever cleaned the carbon out of the chamber with a real M-16 chamber brush??

Have you ever taken the extractor out of the bolt and cleaned under it??

rc
 
I had the same problem with a Bushmaster rifle I unsed to have. I got disqualified from a rifle match (3 gun) because of a stoppage exactly like the one you had with the slug pushed back into the shell casing. The rifle itself had a severe dislike for Colt 20 round magazines that I like to use. But after that stoppage, I decided to upgrade, sold the Bushmaster and got a Stag with an RRA upper. I havent had a problem since. No more Bushy's for me after that.
 
I would just replace a few cheap parts in the bolt and don't use the Winchester White Box. I haven't had much luck with any WWB ammo regardless of caliber.
While you are at it make sure the carrier key is still tight.
 
In addition to a bravo extractor kit you might want to check buffer weight. Mine needed an H2.
 
A little history: In Nam when the m16 was introduced there were a lot of stoppages exactly as you described. Turned out they didn't clean their rifles and there was a lot of corrosion before they chrome plated the bores. I never liked the m16 or its successors and I won't own one. That's just me though! Hope you find the problem soon.
 
Even if that case was glued in the chamber, the extractor should have either torn a chunk out of the rim or tore the whole rim off before it let go. If all it takes is a bit of build up in the chamber to choke your rifle, you have bigger problems.

The said that he only had several hundred rounds through the rifle. Even if he had never cleaned it, it shouldn't have caused a case to stick to an extent that the extractor couldn't pull it out.

Change the extractor/spring.
 
What TA said. Clean the bolt and invest in a extra power extractor spring and maybe a Defender D ring. The rifle is not broke in yet with just a few hundred rounds, spend a day at the range and put 500-1000 rounds through it.
 
Here would be my trouble shooting steps:

1. Clean chamber with a good M16 chamber brush.
1.a. remove extractor and clean under the lip and the spring area.

2. Replace extractor and spring. BCM with the crane o-ring is highly recommended.

3. Check recoil spring to be sure it is in spec.

4. Replace buffer with a heavier buffer.

Was there any damage to the brass that wasn't extracted? I'd like to know if your extractor is worn or if the brass was too soft and was just bending.

Which buffer is in there now? With an out of spec recoil spring and/or a light buffer the rifle may be opening the bolt too quickly and violently. This is a design flaw with M4 length gas systems. The work around is a heavier buffer and a stiffer extractor spring.
 
A little history: In Nam when the m16 was introduced there were a lot of stoppages exactly as you described. Turned out they didn't clean their rifles and there was a lot of corrosion before they chrome plated the bores. I never liked the m16 or its successors and I won't own one. That's just me though! Hope you find the problem soon.

Glad that came up. It's also history a lot of soldiers did clean their weapon, and what they discovered replacing them in the field with special armorer teams on site was that a contractor had put out chambers too tight. All that failed gauging were replaced on the spot.

Chroming the chamber and bore was milspec for the Garand and M14, why it got dropped wasn't part of Stoner's design, it was administrative cost cutting, like loading ammo that used powder held in storage. Rehandling it sifted out precipitates that could create residue and stoppages.

All that was fixed by 1970 and has little to do with the OP - except the use of WWB. It's Fudd loads for bolt plinking, not full power spec ammo for a self loading gas piston action. Shooters using low powered ammo get all sorts of problems, just like NASCAR racers would running on Coleman fuel. You get what you pay for.

Soft non-milspec extractors on non milspec guns are out there, use the M4 upgrade kit and it should cure that problem. For qualifying, competition, or actual tactical use, shooters using the cheapest ammo they can buy deserve the results they get. :rolleyes:
 
I get they ammo they give me at the range. This time it was the white box Winchester, other years it's been other brands, and sometimes it's mystery rounds in a clear baggie.

I snagged 80 more rounds of the Winchester to test a bit.

Last night I did a cleaning. I typically disassemble the bolt when I clean, and I did this time too. I took apart the extractor and the little spring doesn't feel too impressive. there was some buildup under the extractor and in the groove, so I scrubbed it and hosed it down with brake cleaner before lubing and reinstalling it.

After cleaning the bore & chamber I shined a light down/up and it looks very clean. I didn't use an actual chamber brush, but instead used a combination of .38, .308 and .270 brushes.

I think I'll try an upgraded extractor & spring assembly first, then move to the buffer.

I've had a lot of rifles, and this problem perplexed me. Frankly, my old Rusian SKS and Imbel FAL run flawless with cold war era parts, ammo and springs.

The little AR is fairly new and refined by comparison. I still like the AR because it's handy, light, and I can hold it with one hand when opening doors and such.
 
I don't mean to piddle in anyone's cornflakes but I wouldn't be kicking down any doors armed with a "Stag lefty M4 clone":what:

I can see it as an interesting range toy but that bolt, bolt carrier and assorted component parts are about as far from the TDP as I think you can get without requiring NERF ammo.

I agree that the most probable fix is to upgrade the extractor spring with a BCM spring kit. It's a shame you cant upgrade the entire bolt carrier group but your rifle uses a proprietary set up.

For a "working gun" my advice would be to sell the one you have and buy a proper milspec (semiauto) AR (Colt, BCM, LMT, Spike's, etc).

I am left handed and left eye dominant. I have no problems shooting the A-2 style ARs from either side as the deflector bump on the upper receiver does it's job way better than the plastic widget we got with the A-1.
 
DaisyCutter, there's nothing wrong with a Stag. It's just going to need some "upgrading" of some of the small parts, which are usually what have people tearing their hair out. Lots of the less expensive rifles and kits cut corners and they really show in the small parts.

On another note, don't buy into all of that hype about the AR needing to be spic and span clean in order to operate properly. If your rifle messes up when it gets dirty, you have other problems. Oh, and while you're ordering those extractor parts, go ahead and order a set or two of gas rings and a cam pin, 'cause I have a feeling.
 
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