Two new stories show shot placement is king!

[C-grunt]

Well I had 2 shootings happen to people I know recently and both show that shot placement is paramount even when using powerful handguns.

First happened on a late Wednesday night/early Thursday morning. A friends room mate was really drunk and arguing with her boyfriend. During the argument she decides to shoot herself in the chest with a .45 ACP!! Round enters the sternum, misses her heart, goes through a lung and out her back fracturing her scapula. She was airlifted to the hospital.

Thing is, she was up and walking that Saturday. She is due for full release from the hospital less than 2 weeks after the incident. Apparently stated that at the time she didnt think it would be that bad.:banghead:


Second incident happened to a guy I went to high school with. He was arguing with his girlfriend outside her parents house. He begins to choke her in the front yard. Her dad sees this and after several warnings to stop grabs his .357 and shoots a warning shot at him. The guy still doesnt stop choking the girl. So the dad then pistol whips the guy in the head, again not stopping. So dad then shoots the guy in the upper leg. This causes the guy to let her go but angers him. He then picks up a large rock and comes after the dad threatening to hit him with it. Dad then shoots the guy in the upper abdomen/low chest area. Guy drops the rock, looks at his wound, then sits down on the curb and dials 911.

BTW the dad has not been charged with anything and the guy is still in the hospital and is probably facing charges for choking the girl.

I just wanted to post these two stories because I believe they are pretty good examples that you cant just expect a COM hit with a handgun to be immediately effective, even with the two "best" self defense rounds.

P.S. I dont know the ammunition or guns used in either incident.

 

[harmon rabb]

what kind of losers do you know? jeez.

 

[Blakenzy]

what kind of losers do you know? jeez.

Let's stick to the topic pleeese.


Handguns are not cannons. In fact the are mostly underpowered for the task of physically stopping an angered attacker with 100% certainty. Most service handgun rounds will make a tunnel in you around the diameter of a pinky finger. If the tunnel transects something vital it will slow you down, if not it may go unnoticed. However, in both situations described above they seemed to have stopped the fight, in one way or the other.

 

[Shear_stress]

Handguns are not cannons. In fact the are mostly underpowered for the task of physically stopping an angered attacker with 100% certainty. Most service handgun rounds will make a tunnel in you around the diameter of a pinky finger. If the tunnel transects something vital it will slow you down, if not it may go unnoticed. However, in both situations described above they seemed to have stopped the fight, in one way or the other.

Well said. Hollywood has given people exaggerated notions about handgun effectiveness. Still, two anecdotes--though interesting--don't really tell you a given round performs in aggregate.

 

[Mp7]

Sounds like evolution had a busy day .... sheesh.

 

[FuzzyBunny]

Not possible!
I know cuz I watch TV.
If shot once you fly up and back many feet.
If shot more that twice you blow up!
This of course if your a bad guy.

If your a good guy then its just a flesh wound.

OK time for real life.
When I was in grade school long ago. A girl a few grades ahead of me was hit in the back next to the spine from a richochet from a .22. They doubted she would ever walk again. Also, the shooter was a few hundred yards away.

Whats that saying? You can't miss them enough times to stop them?

 

[SaxonPig]

There is no predicting how a person will react to a gunshot wound. Some people seem to shrug off terrific injuries while others falter at the smallest damage.

Many years ago a cop was shot in the arm with a 22. He had worried and fretted his entire career about being shot to death. When he received this tiny wound he psychologically collapsed and physically fell down and died. This not even near a life-threatening injury but he literally willed himself into dying with his fear.

Another cop. A madman unleashes 6 shots from a 357 magnum. All bullets strike the officer in the torso. The cop rips the empty gun from the shooter's hand and beats him to death with it. The cop recovered after several surgeries and a long hospital stay. This man refused to give up.

 

[918v]

I read one account of a dude taking a 180gr JHP at 1600 FPS from a 44 Mag and reacting just like Perp#2 from the OP. So much for the energy dump theory.

 

[Manco]

Things would have turned out rather differently--and fatally--if these people had used 10mm Auto instead. The bullets would have expanded quite well...if you call exploding like a hand grenade "expansion." The FBI wanted to use 10mm, but shooting it kept knocking their agents back 20' and unconscious with "10mm Auto" from the barrel engraving stamped on their foreheads, so it was a liability issue.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

If you aren't aiming for the head or the spine(from the front) you are wasting your time. COM is good for getting at the spine and that's about the end of it for me. If a homicidal bent attacker takes a hit from my Sp101 3" .357 magnum and decides to sit down and give up then he's not getting any more and the fight is over. If he keeps coming at me then he's getting the other four between his solar plexus and head. I actually drill on silhouettes when rapid firing(no aim, point and pray) the five rounds and usualyl get four out of five on target at fifteen feet between the solar plexus and head(sometimes putting both in the head in a grouping not larger than a playing card, and sometimes four shots in the solar plexus and one in the head, I know I need to tighten it up).

All said, I think I'll invest sooner in those Crimson Tracer laser grips.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Second incident happened to a guy I went to high school with. He was arguing with his girlfriend outside her parents house. He begins to choke her in the front yard. Her dad sees this and after several warnings to stop grabs his .357 and shoots a warning shot at him. The guy still doesnt stop choking the girl. So the dad then pistol whips the guy in the head, again not stopping. So dad then shoots the guy in the upper leg. This causes the guy to let her go but angers him. He then picks up a large rock and comes after the dad threatening to hit him with it. Dad then shoots the guy in the upper abdomen/low chest area. Guy drops the rock, looks at his wound, then sits down on the curb and dials 911.

with the perfect profile shot presented, a shot to the hip girdle would have not only stopped the assault, but would have likely prevented the need for a 2nd shot...it gets his attention and disrupts the skeletal structure enough to prevent rising again, while at the same time avoiding the immediately mortal shot the father was trying to avoid

 

[KBintheSLC]

A single round to the torso cannot be expected to stop an attack... even with a mid-powered centerfire rifle, you may need to make multiple hits. That is why most of our guns have more than one round in the mag... use em.

 

[Manco]

A single round to the torso cannot be expected to stop an attack... even with a mid-powered centerfire rifle, you may need to make multiple hits. That is why most of our guns have more than one round in the mag... use em.

Sometimes it can if the spinal column or associated vital structures (e.g. aorta, vena cava) are hit--that's why I prefer to have enough penetration to get through the thickest beer guts. Handgun bullets that expand wonderfully aren't necessarily better than bullets with more limited expansion or even FMJ if they don't penetrate deeply enough.

 

[m2steven]

In a stressful situation, aiming for the head or spine is probably going to either send a slug past a person or hopefully put one in the sternum. I have a friend who is an emergency med tech for the local fire department (400,000+ population) and she says that most people who get shot go down fairly quickly. Some don't, but it does not take long for the shock of being shot to force you into a "peaceful" position. It's just nature's way.

 

[nitetrane98]

Things would have turned out rather differently--and fatally--if these people had used 10mm Auto instead. The bullets would have expanded quite well...if you call exploding like a hand grenade "expansion." The FBI wanted to use 10mm, but shooting it kept knocking their agents back 20' and unconscious with "10mm Auto" from the barrel engraving stamped on their foreheads, so it was a liability issue.

You're correct, of course, about the 10mm auto performance but there is no reason to exaggerate. It was only 10' and the marks in the forehead were gone within a few hours. Nobody was knocked unconscious, slightly woosy maybe, but not unconscious. This is how things get started on the internet.

 

[Mike J]

I keep thinking about the girl you said shot herself in the chest with a .45. I'm not going to go into all the details but many years ago a guy I knew did that with a 12 gauge. 22 years old & dead.

 

[JoeSlomo]

I just wanted to post these two stories because I believe they are pretty good examples that you cant just expect a COM hit with a handgun to be immediately effective, even with the two "best" self defense rounds.

The human body is often capable of absorbing far more punishment than would be expected.

ALL handguns are "underpowered", however, some are more so than others.


Shot placement IS extremely important, however, just because a shot is placed where one thinks it should be does not mean the intended target was actually damaged.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Two new stories show shot placement is king!

Yeah, shot placement is nothing without penetration and trajectory/bullet path.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Ill just refer to this thread I started a while back that has been quite popular even recently. Moral of the story it to shot twice or even three times if all you have is a handgun. Shotgun....once may be enough to COM.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=509359

 

[Guiding101]

I really feel it comes down to raw energy transfer, and preferably transferring it into bone. The problem is a bullet that exits is not dissipating all of it's kinetic energy into the target. A .44 mag pushing 1,200 FPE does not mean jack if it only dissipates a couple hundred foot pounds. There is no hydrostatic shock inparted on the central nervous system. Even with a heart shot, the perp is still able to move about for a short period of time, at least until his body goes into shock. If he has a gun, it could be all the time he needs to put the first shovel full of dirt in your face. Think about this for a moment: I really don't care what you are strung out on, if you are struck with a baseball bat in the rib cage/ sternum with 1,200 FPE, you are going down. A bat transfers 100% of it's energy. This causes broken bones, and shuts down oxygen supply to the brain when it compresses the lungs. Look at boxing, a well placed body shot ends more matches by incapacitating the opponents respiration process, than do heavy handed head shots.
That is why bullet selection is crucial to the job at hand. While a hollow point may not penetrate a heavily clothed perp when fired out of a 9mm, I would take it over a FMJ that simply passes through and hits nothing. However with good shot placement, 99% of all attacks could end immediately with a .22lr to the soft parts of the head or throat. Me, I don't trust myself to make that shot 100% of the time. I carry a .44 mag with hollow points........6 of them.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

However with good shot placement, 99% of all attacks could end immediately with a .22lr to the soft parts of the head or throat.

So a .22 passing through somebody's cheek, nose, ear or fleshy double chin would end 99% of all attacks? Once again, shot placement is nothing without trajectory and penetration. If your trajectory isn't a course through vital structures of if the penetration is so poor that the round won't make it to vital structures, then shot placement is lame. As noted in the OP, a shot to the sternum that penetrated all the way through the body did little harm as the trajectory didn't take the round through any vital structures. Yeah a lung is vital, but you have two and as seen in the Miami FBI shootout, only having one lung damaged and filling with blood certainly may not stop an aggressive person.

 

[Guiding101]

Double
I was eluding to the .22lr round not deflecting off of a skull plate of the forehead when I stated soft head area. It is easy to pick one part of a statement and put into your context isn't it? We have all seen a heart shot deer go for a ways. Penetration and trajectory should tell you that that is a perfect kill shot. But if the deer had a gun, he would have time to put a few rounds through you before he expires. My post was more aimed towards hydrostatic shock. Once vitals are reached penetration and trajectory from there means absolutley nothing other than when the bullet exits, it did not expand all of its energy.

 

[UpTheIrons]

I keep thinking about the girl you said shot herself in the chest with a .45.

I once met a lady who tried to commit suicide by putting a .38 just under her sternum, angled slightly up. She inhaled deeply just before she pulled the trigger. That action 'lifted' her heart out of the path of the bullet - otherwise, she'd have been DRT.

Today is also the 15th anniversary of Selena's murder. One .38 round through the upper back that cut her subclavian artery, and she was dead in minutes. They said she died of blood loss an hour later, but the first EMTs on the scene reported her as completely unresponsive with no pulse or BP. This from an "accidental" shot, no less.

Weird things happen with flesh, bones and bullets.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Sometimes it can if the spinal column or associated vital structures

Manco,
I don't think you are hearing me. I didn't say it is not possible to stop someone with one shot... of course it is possible. It is also possible for them to drop dead from a heart attack after you fire your first near miss.

What I was trying to relay is that it cannot be expected. If you think that you can expect to hit the spinal column at will during a heated gun fight, then you may want to do a bit more research into the dynamics of armed confrontation.

 

[Manco]

I don't think you are hearing me. I didn't say it is not possible to stop someone with one shot... of course it is possible.

It wasn't my intention to contradict what you said, but rather use it as a transition to emphasizing the importance of penetration. The way I wrote it was somewhat incomplete--instead I should have said something like "That's true, but in order to enable a possible one-shot stop with a JHP at all, you'll need all the penetration you can get."

I also should have pointed out specifically that intermediate rifle rounds such as 5.56x45mm (or maybe even larger calibers) frequently do not achieve sufficient penetration at close range due to bullet design, and therefore often have to rely on the sheer amount of trauma caused by kinetic energy in order to potentially stop (on a near-central hit, as opposed to a brain or heart shot). Obviously, many hunting rounds would do fine against human targets in terms of penetration, and Federal Tactical, to name another example, does too.

I realize that I keep beating the penetration drum around here, so to speak, but it's a reaction to all of the understandable focus on the reliable and sometimes massive expansion of modern JHP handgun rounds. Making a large hole is always nice (except for the target!), but overly shallow hits on most of the center-of-mass area will almost certainly not incapacitate with one hit except for unreliable psychological factors.

What I was trying to relay is that it cannot be expected. If you think that you can expect to hit the spinal column at will during a heated gun fight, then you may want to do a bit more research into the dynamics of armed confrontation.

On a moving target, no, I expect a lot of random factors to come into play both before and after the bullet leaves the barrel, of course. In a real gunfight, it's quite easy to completely miss with a shotgun, too, so the proverbial one-shot stop should probably be called the one-hit stop.