Two officers dead after 14-hour stand-off

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I understand that there are times when private property must be used for the public good.
It seems to me that it would be far better if the "just compensation" was routinely more than market value, since the "seller" didn't really want to sell in the first place. That might prevent some of this from happening in the future.
I agree that whoever decided that the state was taking the property should be the one to go tell the property owners about it.
 
OK two officers are dead, murdered, murdered, MURDERED by armed loonies, more crime with guns committed by the lunatic fringe and you all are debating the ins and outs of the evil government...

No wonder the great undecideds fear guns....and the RKBA movement...

WildspeechlessAlaska
 
OK two officers are dead, murdered, murdered, MURDERED by armed loonies, more crime with guns committed by the lunatic fringe and you all are debating the ins and outs of the evil government..
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Two officers were killed carrying out the will of a government. Why is it inappropriate to discuss the powers and policies which sent those men to meet their death by making them enforce state-sponsored property appropriation?

They were killed ostensibly because the loonies didn't want to give up their land for the public good. While I vehemently disagree with their choice of tactics, I can sympathize with their opposition to eminent domain.

Bad laws can get good people killed.
 
Bad laws can get good people killed.
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Yes, but eminent domain is not a bad law. It allows for progress that will benefit everyone. Our federal highway system is one of the best programs this country has ever had and has immeasureably benefitted every person in the U.S. Our entire system of commerce, and consequently, our economy, would be crippled if not for our highways. (In real-world terms, that means no more new guns). Yes, it is a shame that some folks lose their homes in the process of building highways, but as individuals we live in a society, not in a vacuum. Don't like it? Too danged bad. Those inclined to complain about this system of fair compensation for the public good are usually pretty mute when it comes to carrying that whining over to the benefits they receive from the strongest economy in the world.
 
It allows for progress that will benefit everyone.
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It can allow progress that will benefit everyone, and in fact, it has. However, it also can be abused, and most definitely is being abused, mostly by the practice of giving eminent domain land to private companies with which to build shopping malls, in the name of urban renewal.

I'm not defending these murderers, though. The proper battlefield to combat abusive eminent domain use is the court room.
 
Officials said the Bixby family had been upset about South Carolina Department of Transportation plans to widen Highway 72 across part of the property their Union Church Road house is on. The SCDOT said the land was obtained by the state in 1960, long before the Bixbys bought the home in 1999.
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"Stewart said after Wilson arrived, two calls were made to unidentified people saying that an officer had been shot and "It's begun." Stewart would not say who made the calls.

Stewart said when Ouzts and a second deputy arrived on the scene to check on the call, Ouzts was shot as he stepped out of his car. The second deputy escaped unharmed.

Stewart said the family had been planning for this event to occur on whatever day state crews began working on the property near their home."
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ABBEVILLE -- A man accused of murder in the deaths of two law enforcement officers in Abbeville County says he didn't do it.

"Not guilty. There were a lot of things done. We had an opportunity. We notified the attorney general and the governor. They could have done something about it. They wouldn't do anything about it," Steve Bixby told WYFF News 4's Brad Willis as he was led into the Greenwood County courthouse Tuesday.

Inside the courtroom, Bixby claimed he was quoting from the New Hampshire constitution which he said states that if you feel you've been wronged by the government, you have a "right to revolution."

"It was self defense," Bixby said. "If we can't be freer than this, I'd rather die."
As Rita Bixby was led from the courtroom, Steve Bixby yelled from an adjacent room "I love you, Mom!"

http://www.thecarolinachannel.com/news/2693487/detail.html
 
Inside the courtroom, Bixby claimed he was quoting from the New Hampshire constitution which he said states that if you feel you've been wronged by the government, you have a "right to revolution."
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Another constituional expert with a gun.....

WildcaseclosedAlaska
 
WildAK is right. But, I think this discussion stems from us, both as individuals, and as a society, having watched Ruby Ridge and Waco on the national news. At least those of us who were paying attention.

Surely, no one can argue that what these morons did would in any way be construed as reasonable. The murders, again, WildAK is right, can in no way be condoned. Yet, and I think many would agree that after having watched the above incidents on TV, I view with initial suspicion the reports of the police storming houses.

If I had to guess, I'd say that these people were given notice of the intent of the state to construct a wider road. I'd also bet that they had a moderate previous history of contact with police officers, that they were not well liked by their neighbors, that they generally didn't get along with those they had daily contact. Sending only one officer to the house after receiving the threat complaint was a huge mistake.

Still, the government, speaking generally of many municipalities, has abused it's use of eminent domain to increase revenues. We know that's happened.

I understand the frustration of these morons....but they'll die with needles in their arms...and rightfully so.
 
While this specific incident appears pretty much like a clear-cut case of murder as WildAlaska stated, I wonder what the media reports would look like even if the situation was a blatant abuse of power? Locally, on interstate 494 in Richfield, MN, the local suburb ousted people from their homes and buisnesses in order to "give" land to build Best Buy a new corporate headquarters. They get more tax revenue from Best Buy. I wonder how I would feel if the shooter(s) were people who had lived there for 40 or so years, only to be told they have to move so the government could GIVE their land to a private corporation?

Mixed feeling.
 
However, it also can be abused, and most definitely is being abused, mostly by the practice of giving eminent domain land to private companies with which to build shopping malls, in the name of urban renewal.
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Yup. But that is not what were are talking about IN THIS CASE. Continually referring to unrelated abuses of eminent domain and even Ruby Ridge to provide context to this situation is no different than Chuckie Schumer lumping all gun owners in with felon gang bangers. Each case should be decided on its own merits. These people (and I use that term loosely) were way out of line and I hope they suffer a painful execution at the hands of the dreaded state.
 
These people (and I use that term loosely) were way out of line and I hope they suffer a painful execution at the hands of the dreaded state.
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That is unlikely as cruel and unusual punishment is explicitly prohibted by the Constitution.
 
This news story is eerily reminiscent of the book 'Roadwork' by Richard Bachman/Stephen King.

Condolences to the bereaved.
 
Local news had a sidebar to this story about how the weapon used was a post-ban Bushmaster, and how easily these "high powered" rifles are variations of the military M16, pierce body armor, are completely legal, and can be obtained at a pawn shop.

:fire:
 
Why is it if a citizen shoots an officer, they're obviously loonies, but if the officers step out of line, it's an isolated incident and shouldn't be discussed in context with other officers and potentials..?

:scrutiny:
 
The SCDOT said the land was obtained by the state in 1960, long before the Bixbys bought the home in 1999.
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It might be fair to assume that in this case, the 40-year old, pre-existing easement was exercised by the state, and they intended to pay the current owners zero, for taking their land. Was the easement properly recorded on the deed? Well, that may answer the "just compensation" part of question.

From another news article:
"Not guilty. There were a lot of things done. We had an opportunity. We notified the attorney general and the governor. They could have done something about it. They wouldn't do anything about it," Steve Bixby told WYFF News 4's Brad Willis as he was led into the Greenwood County courthouse Tuesday
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I'd like to see the correspondence exchanged here. My guess is this background information will never see the light of day, because it will declared "irrelevent" by the judge in the murder trial.

Also from a news article:
Bixby said Wilson did not have a warrant. He claimed Wilson kicked down the door of the house after it was closed on him.
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Leo's welcome to comment on the ramifications of warrantless officer kicking a door in, esp. without backup. Homeowner's right to self defense under these circumstances? Please, if possible, could we attempt to rise above the "scum burn in hell" level of discussion; or refrain from posting. Thanks.
 
I saw this nutcase on the news last night. All the yelling he was doing at the cameras sure didn't help his defense or the publics opinion of him as a land owner protecting his land. He looked more like a redneck looking for a fight.
 
My thoughts on the matter....

Well, I can't say I've got a whole lot of sympathy for either this person or this case as being a valid defense against the state.

That being said...

I think this is a pattern that we're going to be seeing, and there is a certain relevance to RKBA.

We're currently in a cold civil war, statists vs nonstatists, that's been bubbling up for at least 30 years.

It's likely to turn sporadically hot, here and there along the way.

When it does, many cases are going to strike us as "less valid" rather than "more valid".

What's going to happen is that hot conflict will initially appear around the "border cases", when decent LEO's enforcing what we would view as "mildy repugnant" but tolerable laws come up against people for whom little public sympathy would exist, people who have also "drawn the line" well outside the area that we would.

The result will be cases that look like this, and we are wise to take it as a warning sign.

Between the extreme where everything is proper and just on the one hand, and the other extreme where the molestation is so widespread or outrageous that even the mildest pacifist would agree it's time to fight, there's a lot of room for the State to explore abuse of it's citizens.

In fact, that threshold is pretty high. A government can massively abuse a small number of people, as long as it's not widespread, and get away with it. Similarly, they can mildly mistreat everyone on a widespread basis without tripping the "outrage" switch.
 
Geekwitha45 Opined that:
In fact, that threshold is pretty high. A government can massively abuse a small number of people, as long as it's not widespread, and get away with it. Similarly, they can mildly mistreat everyone on a widespread basis without tripping the "outrage" switch.
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A very cogent statement and the government is - I am sure - very aware of the concept that you have verbalized.

Being aware that they can do pretty much what ever they want up to a certain point, the US government like all governments throughout history has and will do what ever it wants until it eventually crosses the line and enrages the masses. It's all a balancing act and as long as the government keeps in mind the principle of "BREAD AND CIRCUSES", which the Democrats and the republorats have down pat the government can go pretty far with their abuse.

That's what governments do - it's who they are!
 
Latest update: http://www.charleston.net/stories/121003/loc_10abbe1.shtml

excerpts:
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Son says family charged in officers' deaths was defending home

Bixby said he acted in self-defense because sheriff's Sgt. Daniel Wilson, 37, tried to force his way into his parents' home on state Highway 72 just west of downtown Abbeville.

Authorities say Wilson did not have any arrest papers or warrants when he went to the home -- he just went to talk to the family.

It began about 9:15 a.m. Monday, when sheriff's Sgt. Danny Wilson, 37, stepped out of his cruiser at the Bixby home and told his dispatcher "10-6," a police code meaning he would be busy, Sheriff Charles Goodwin said.

Wilson had no court papers or arrest warrants to serve, Goodwin said.
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So, here the sheriff confirmed that the first officer who went to talk to the family had no warrants to serve. If the officer kicked down the door, once it was slammed in his face (as claimed), what rights of self defense do the homeowners have?
 
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