Typical self defense shooting distances ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
FMJMIKE: Are you looking to design a practice program for yourself, or advising somebody else?

Jeff22......... I just want to be prepared for a situation that I might most likely face. So.......If the attacker is going to be under 20 feet away I need a weapon that is very effective for close ranges. Seems like a low recoiling, high capacity weapon would be handy. Ideas ???
 
Librarian: Your scenario makes my point. At 50' the guy with the knife is a problem, but he is not a shooting problem yet. Realistically there are probably a number of non-shooting solutions available at 50' but if we screw those up we get a gunfight at 10'. Even at 50' you should probably get your gun into your hand, and find something to stand behind (or break contact and leave.)

The reason distance makes a different is time. A 1 second draw stroke is going to give the attacker 14 feet of linear movement. So we need to get that draw stroke done well before 14 feet. If we believe that we are going to need more than one shot to solve the problem then every quarter second split time will give him another 3.5 feet of movement.

How many close quarter gun fights started out as long distance problems and were mismanaged to contact distance.
 
The reason distance makes a different is time. A 1 second draw stroke is going to give the attacker 14 feet of linear movement. So we need to get that draw stroke done well before 14 feet. If we believe that we are going to need more than one shot to solve the problem then every quarter second split time will give him another 3.5 feet of movement.
Click to expand...

Realistically, nobody has a 1 second cold draw stroke from concealment except maybe when the hand starts out on the gun (as with some pocket carry options). I certainly would not want to base my defense parameters on such a quick draw when in reality I am not likely to attain it. Two seconds is probably more realistic for most folks. Sure, many of us can do it quicker than that, especially after warming up, adjusting our clothing, holster, etc., but such options usually are not available in real life.

Something else to keep in mind, FMJMike is that while there may be typical gun fight distances, as historical data of unrelated situations to your own, the data are mutually exclusive to your situation. In other words, historical precedent can't be viewed as deterministic of what you will encounter. It is sort of like the oft queried statement of "Is five shots enough?" and the answer is, "Yes, except when it isn't." The problem is, based on the historical insight, you have no way to know if your incident will by typical or atypical. If atypical and you base all your training on what is typical, then you may end up typically screwed.

Ken Hackathorn had a good suggestion. He idea was that folks should spend about 90% of the training time at 10 yards and less and the other 10% at greater distances, certainly out as far as 50 yards, and to be sure to regularly shoot all 100%. You don't want to do your 10% long distance training as complete shooting sessions 1 or 4 times a year, but try to do some with each shooting session.
 
All of my experience comes from LE work in a city environment.
Contact distance to about 15ft and to be blunt contact to 1 ft was the most common by far!

I definitely practice at distance 15-20 yards to keep my trigger work honed but I also do (when I can) CQ drills (a lot of dry fire but some live fire as well).
 
I recall an article some time back that said for LAPD the "average" firearms engagement occurred at <20 ft in light too dim to see the sights. Sorry, cant cite- the dog ate it. I know that involved cops, but it's probably not too far off for "civilians." It's likely safe to say that a 10X scope isn't required for self defense outside of a major urban riot.
 
Double Naught Spy:

My point was not about hard and fast times for draw speed, my point was about distance covered. If the threat is closing you are going to end up with a lot of contact distance gunfights unless you are really fast or manage the situation well enough to get started early.
 
This is all so much hypothisising. My hope is if I ever have to draw my weapon I will see the impending threat far enough away, (but exactly how far is that?) so once i draw my weapon the threat will still far enough away I can use the weapon to diswade his intentions.

The reason i desided to take advantage of my states CC laws is simple. One of my favorite places to take my oldest son fishing is located in a nice quite out of the way place not known for ANY type of criminal activity. Then two things happened that changed all that.

<>Incident #1-I was fishing with my oldest son of five, when i heard what sounded like two men arguing noisly headed our way. We were on a large point in heavy vegitation, so i could not see them untill thay were less than twenty feet away from me. When i sttod up I could tell thay were both extreamly starteled to see me, I also instantly noticed thay had a BIIIIG bag of reefer (sorry cant spell the clinincle name for pot) and were arguing over it for some reason. Thay both did a about face and ran away. That left me concerned primarly because no#1 I had one of the loves of my life with me, and second I was totally cought off gaurd by the possability of that type of person being at the lake i was at, and being on a point i had no were to go if I had to flee with my son.

<>Incident#2 Different lake same general area with in a 10 mile radious. I was getting out of my truck to go fishing again with my five year old son, when I noticed the "no parking this side of lot" sighn was shot up:cuss:. As i was looking at it in disgust a IN DOC cop pulled up and said hellow. We talked and i commented on the shot up sign. He replied thats nothing did you read in the paper what happend here last week? I replied no, I had been working 60 to 70hrs a week for the last five months so I have had little time for anyhting.

He went on to inform me that some drug types had brought four men to this park that had been tied up previously, nelt them down and shot them all in the head:what::what:. One servived but was left for dead, and after the shooters left made his way to a local establishment and got help. Now keep in mind this is in a city in Indiana not known for any type of vilont crime, let alone gangland exicutions. I would never even think of taking my son to place that was the hange out of dangerous criminals, but i guess today it can and does happen anywhere. When I got home after talking to the DOC cop I asked my wife why the :cuss: didnt she tell me about the above killings? She replied I did not know you fished there:banghead:

So now when i go fishing or anywhere out of the way with my son(s) I bring my 3"XD40 with. Nice to know I am no longer at the mercy of stranagers.
 
I've always heard from 0 to 3 yards.
Click to expand...

You should see how well I can shoot the target at 0 yards - I can put em all within 5 inches like nobody's business. Can someone say, cloverleaf? :p
 
On the street, you'd be hard pressed to justify shooting at more than 7 yards away. Inside your house, it would be hard to find a distance of more than 7 yards to shoot clearly. I suppose it depends on your floor plans, but 0 to 5 yards seems a logical distance.
 
If you and the BG can see each other...and he is shooting at you...AND you cannot put real cover between you and the BG...then you are in a self defense situation. I don't care how far away he is.

Remember...a hit , even from pure bad luck, can kill. Thats why we should practice, at least some, at much longer ranges than "the norm".

I'm not good at distance and never claimed to be. I just shoot some at distance,(sometimes 200 yds), just to see how things are when the target is very small. Its fun to do when you and a buddy can spot for eachother and the competition makes you concentrate better.

Mark.
 
My personal experiences as a civilian where firearms were produced with/without shots fired include:

-Rule of Threes: 3 seconds, 3 shots, 3 yards
-Contact
-Bad Breath
-Further out.
-Others

Incoming runs from .22 rimfire, 00 buck, 12 ga slugs, to .45-70...
and whatever else.
Firearms runs from derringers, to revolvers, to semi auto handguns, single shot shot shots to repeaters, and rifles, of all platforms.

One shot fired from one gun, to who knows how many guns and how many rounds fired all total.
One time the Police said the brass left where I was in the midst of a crossfire..."helluva lot and we ain't counted it all yet"

There is much truth to hearing the "thwack" then the shot on incoming.

FWIW, yes, one can miss with "all them pellets" from a shotgun from ~ 7 yds.
Granted I was moving and scooting and wearing out pavement and shoe leather, but yeah, *thankfully* some folks can't run a shotgun and one can miss with all them pellets.

I do recommend one take prudent steps to not find any of this out for themselves.

Footwear choices are real important equipment considerations...


Use Enough Run!
 
There is simply not enough data on civilian (non-police) shootings to provide information. In spite of all the talk here about self-defense, where a bad guy with a long record is shot by a family man with a spotless reputation, it usually doesn't happen that way.

The usual civilian shooting gets headlines like "Man slain in argument outside bar" or "Alleged drug dealer killed in shootout over territory." Distance? 0-6 feet, not 50 yards or even 7 yards.

Jim
 
I work for a big-city PD, and there has to be some reason we only "qual" out to to 15 yards. It used to be 25, but somewhere along the way, it was reduced. OTOH, the last murder scene I worked involved a bad guy, who had been in a dispute at a burger joint, driving a short distance away, getting out of his truck, standing on his hind legs, and nailing one of the other party from over 70 yards, with a weapon firing .40 S&W cartridges. I don't recall the number of empty cases, but I remember thinking the shooter must have emptied a magazine. Edited to add: Most civilian shootings seem to happen at conversational distances.
 
So it seems to me that being able to access or have the defense weapon fast and being able to load/ready/fire/aim the defense weapon fast is more important than being able to shoot 2" groups at 15 yards. Yes?

Also, advance warning of a break in or maintaining distance from a potential attacher seems important too.

I probably focus too much on just trying to shoot accurate from longer distances, which is fun, but not as necessary in real life encounter.
 
This is as good a place as any for my first post. I've been lurking in here and the reloading section for a while.

If you want "typical" distances, I think you have to evaluate "typical" situations you may find yourself in. For example, I usually practice from 0'-21'. My feeling is that based on my life style, where I live, where I work and shop, etc., bad stuff would likely happen within those distances. Any further than that I think I'd try and retreat first. I also know my limitations with the snubby I carry almost all the time. I'm not likely to shoot the crazy guy with a rifle atop the water tower with the 38. ;) One of the reasons I chose that weapon is because of the likely range from which I may have trouble find me.

Here is an interesting article on the "21 foot rule":

http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/200403-21_FT_Rule.pdf
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

ACP
  • Locked
Self-defense shooting distances
Replies
17
Views
988
voilsb
V
L
  • Locked
Threat Distance?
2
Replies
29
Views
818
Kleanbore
K
G
  • Locked
Sports Psychology, Flow, and Mentality of Self-Defense?
Replies
8
Views
344
Pat McCoy
P
H
  • Locked
Follow me on this one..
2 3 4
Replies
79
Views
3K
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
K
  • Locked
Judged by Twelve
2 3 4
Replies
86
Views
2K
Fred Fuller
F
Back
Top