U.N. members, gun lobby face arms fight

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Davo

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U.N. members, gun lobby face arms fight By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special

UNITED NATIONS - Britain, Japan, Australia and others are pushing for an unprecedented treaty regulating the arms trade worldwide, in a campaign sure to last years and to pit them against a determined American foe, the National Rifle Association.

In what U.N. officials say is an "overwhelming" response, almost 100 governments have submitted ideas for such a treaty, to be reviewed over the next year. There's an "extremely urgent" need for controls on the international gun trade, says Kenya, echoing the sentiment in much of guns-besieged Africa.

But in the U.S., the NRA says it sees a creeping attempt to limit civilian gun ownership within nations — even though the focus now is on setting standards for arms exports and imports.

The international issues "necessarily will come to involve at some point domestic laws and policies regarding firearms," said former congressman Bob Barr, a leading NRA voice on the subject.

"That's not what we're looking at here," countered Greg Puley, of the Control Arms coalition of pro-treaty advocacy groups. "The point is to control trade in weapons that contribute to conflict and atrocities."

The NRA and other U.S. gun lobbyists have helped blunt earlier efforts at the United Nations to rein in the weapons trade. Last December, the U.S. delegation cast the lone negative vote when 153 nations approved a General Assembly resolution initiating this new treaty process.

Now, alone among the world's top 10 arms suppliers, the United States — by far the biggest, with almost $13 billion in arms export agreements in 2005 — has not filed a requested report to the United Nations with its views on a treaty.

"The United States has not yet decided whether it will or will not participate in (the review), and thus we will have no submission at this time," Richard Kidd, a deputy assistant secretary of state, told The Associated Press.

The treaty campaign may encounter resistance beyond Washington as well. The reports from Russia and China, two other big arms exporters, offered only lukewarm endorsement for stricter controls.

"This is just the beginning of the process. There will be a lot said on the issue," noted Pamela Maponga, conventional arms chief in the U.N. Disarmament Affairs Office here.

Britain, a $3-billion-a-year arms exporter, has spearheaded the effort with a half-dozen co-sponsoring nations, saying unscrupulous traders capitalize on gaps and differences in various nations' export-import laws in order to ship assault rifles and other weapons into areas where they inflame conflict and oppression.

The United States and other industrialized countries generally keep close oversight on arms sales, but dozens of nations have no regulations specific to weapons exports and imports. Only 37 nations, for example, have laws governing the operations of private arms brokers.

In its submission, Britain proposes a legally binding treaty requiring governments to authorize weapons exports only after ascertaining that they will not provoke or prolong armed conflicts, aid in human rights abuses, destabilize countries or undermine peace in other ways.

Treaty advocates favor standardizing export-import documents for weapons, and requiring governments to exchange information about weapons transfers, to ensure that the end-use criteria are being met. The British say a "mechanism for enforcement and monitoring" would be necessary — implying some kind of U.N. arms watchdog — along with provisions for punishing states breaking the rules.

Barr said the NRA, long opposed to government tracking of gun owners, fears that any international "watch list" of gun purchasers might violate U.S. privacy rights. In addition, he said, U.S. firearms manufacturers are "extremely concerned" about trade restrictions.

Britain, Canada, France and others propose a treaty that would cover the full range of conventional weapons, from handguns to tanks and combat aircraft. But concerns about illicit sales and smuggling have mostly focused on AK-47 assault rifles and other smaller weapons, especially in Africa. Experts estimate one-quarter of the $4 billion-a-year international small arms business involves illicit dealings. Up to a half-million people are believed killed each year by small arms, and more than 600 million such weapons are believed in circulation.

"We urge all governments to act in the interest of those millions dying," Kenya said in its submission.

In the next step, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is expected this month to name an experts' group from two dozen nations to review the submissions of 98 governments and report back to the General Assembly in the fall of 2008 on what kind of arms trade treaty might be feasible.

In a "best-case scenario," Puley said, the experts would recommend that a working group be established to draft a treaty text. General Assembly adoption of a pact wouldn't be expected before 2010.


:barf:
Why not just refuse sale of guns to certain african countries?
I see changes like this resitricting foriegn guns coming INTO the US for commercial sale. So those nice CZ's, and really cool K31's will no longer be availible.
I also wonder if foreign ammo manufacturers will be affected, if so we may be kissing Wolf, Laupua, and Norma goodbye.
 
The UN wants to disarm everbody who isn't in kahoots with the UN directly.

Ask the victims of gov't genocide in Sub-Saharan Africa if they think that the UN should restrict arms sales to individual citizens? Is Africa swimming in small arms? No. They don't have enough.
 
It to me is the UNs way of disarming the world so they can take over and become the ultimate power...I think we need to kick that useless agency out of this country. They have not done anything for the US lately, so why do we really need an agency that doesn't support us on our soil.
 
The Oil for Food resolution clearly indicates that UN treaties are worthless.

I'm hearing more and more folks wondering why we're involved in the UN. Sounds like the UN is creating plenty of John Birch Society members.
 
Not that I'm a big UN hater (did attend the National Model UN held in the General Assembly Chambers in NY), but honestly, can anyone tell me when the UN actually DID something productive? Okay, so there are some UN peacekeepers around the world, but even they are largely impotent. What single success can we point to?

Ash
 
The United States and other industrialized countries generally keep close oversight on arms sales

Exactly - in fact, the United States has some of the strictest import/export controls on small arms in the world. Just try and ship some of this stuff to our guys in Iraq and you can easily run afoul of them.

Yet every boneheaded article I see on this subject singles out the U.S. and the NRA without mentioning that the primary offenders of these laws are China and Russia. What exactly is the point of an international treaty that levies restrictions on individual gun owners in the United States but leaves Russia and China free to ship AKs by the planeload? It certainly doesn't have anything to do with humanitarian ideals.

Ask the victims of gov't genocide in Sub-Saharan Africa if they think that the UN should restrict arms sales to individual citizens? Is Africa swimming in small arms? No. They don't have enough.

Dead on point. The problem in Africa isn't too many firearms, it is that one side has a monopoly on firearms (usually the government and their supporters) and may slaughter the other side with impunity. This is the exact situation that the U.N. proposals seek to recreate in Western countries.
 
Dafur, Rwanda, Liberia, Nigeria, Sudan, and the states that comprise the former country known as Yugoslavia - all these nations remind me of why I don't trust the UN for my safety.
 
I'm not opposed to international treaties regulating arms trade, but I don't think the UN can be trusted with this task AT ALL.
 
In its submission, Britain proposes a legally binding treaty requiring governments to authorize weapons exports only after ascertaining that they will not provoke or prolong armed conflicts, aid in human rights abuses, destabilize countries or undermine peace in other ways.
How will they ascertain this result?
Britain can't even stop criminals from using firearms within Britain, despite their own domestic Draconian anti-firearms laws.
 
From The Article said:
UNITED NATIONS - Britain, Japan, Australia and others are pushing for an unprecedented treaty regulating the arms trade worldwide, in a campaign sure to last years and to pit them against a determined American foe, the National Rifle Association.

The UN should be more worried about getting around our Constitution. The United States cannot enter into any treaty that would infringe upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Article II gives the president power to enter into treaties with the consent of 2/3 of the Senators present, but both the President and the Senators are forbidden to infringe upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Article VI says that treaties made under the authority of the United States shall be part of the supreme law of the land, but any such treaty infringing upon the right would not be anything permitted under the authority of the United States due to the Second Amendment and, therefore, unenforceable.

One must also remember why our Right to Keep and Bear Arms must not be infringed. Without our unfettered right to arms, we are nothing more than villein to the villainous.

Woody

"Knowing the past, I'll not surrender any arms and march less prepared into the future." B.E.Wood
 
Good point Woody. Why justify your argument by using recent laws when you can defer to the constitution.

Britain, a $3-billion-a-year arms exporter, has spearheaded the effort with a half-dozen co-sponsoring nations, saying unscrupulous traders capitalize on gaps and differences in various nations' export-import laws in order to ship assault rifles and other weapons into areas where they inflame conflict and oppression.

In its submission, Britain proposes a legally binding treaty requiring governments to authorize weapons exports only after ascertaining that they will not provoke or prolong armed conflicts, aid in human rights abuses, destabilize countries or undermine peace in other ways.
Around 1940 Britian placed an ad in American Riflemen begging Americans to send them small arms that could be used to protect their homeland. The plea was answered with the NRA sending 7,000 guns to them. And they thank us by doing this :cuss: Part of me thinks Britian is just trying to do the right thing and save the world from gun violence, but there is the :scrutiny: in me as well.

Source: http://www.guncite.com/journals/okslip.html#fn77
 
So because other countries can't monitor they're stuff, we should be lumped in as well? Sorry but no. I still cringe at the thought of any UN peacekeepers walking down the streets of New York given the overall track record of the UN itself.
 
Lots of good points in this thread.

The UN is a freaking joke. Remember when they tried to take guns from Aidid's militia in Somalia in the summer of 1993? 24 Pakistani "peacekeepers" KIA, the greatest combat loss the UN has ever incurred.

Just keep in mind that the logical conclusion for liberals is a one-world government that determines what priviledges everyone has and redistributes wealth among the entire world. They have absolutely no concept of individual liberty or United States sovereignty.

The Chinese and Russian blue helmets are going to be in for a surprise when they try to take our guns away.;)
 
nobody wants to stop Americans owning in guns in there own country.
its stopping aks and other junk small arms reaching Africa parts of the middle east and a few other places. :uhoh:
 
Aside from just being wrong constitutionally, this would never work. All it would do is make the illegal gun runners richer. Seems rather counter productive. If this happens I just see an even larger gun smuggling problem than is already going on. May not affect the US in that way, but I'm sure it would affect the country where they are trying to keep guns out. The criminals will come out on top if this happens IMO.
 
So because other countries can't monitor they're stuff, we should be lumped in as well? Sorry but no. I still cringe at the thought of any UN peacekeepers walking down the streets of New York given the overall track record of the UN itself.

Don't the USA's internal gun laws use the same logic? For me to own a firearm I have to give a reason for ownership and I have to participate in a background check to prove I am not a felon. The burden of proof is no longer the governments responsibility, it is the citizens. I am being lumped in as a criminal until I can prove otherwise.
 
Not that I'm a big UN hater (did attend the National Model UN held in the General Assembly Chambers in NY), but honestly, can anyone tell me when the UN actually DID something productive? Okay, so there are some UN peacekeepers around the world, but even they are largely impotent. What single success can we point to?

Well the UN with what was mostly US military effort, did manage to keep the North Koreans from taking over the entire Korean peninsula in the 1950s. Of course, the backstory to this is that Russia had decided to boycott the UN Security Council, thereby throwing away the veto that would have halted UN involvement in the Korean conflict. Thus the UN worked only under the special condition that the U.S. had no formal opposition to its foreign policy by other member states. Essentially when the UN policy is entirely congruent with US foreign policy it can be successful in its mission.

The UN, even with a sweeping international treaty regulating the sales of small arms, will prove utterly unable to prevent small arms from winding up in the wrong hands in parts of the world where there is no such thing as the rule of law. (Like almost the entire continent of Africa for starters.)
 
The only expectation one should have of the UN is that the UN and its operations will become the holding ground for all the worst aspects of each individual member nation.

from there they try and find a way to combine all of the worst, but still lacking its own military strength to truly become as bad as it could be.

if you look at the UN from that perspective, it all makes perfect sense.
 
The UN represents its members interests not the earth's or citizen's interests. I expect that the strongest supporters of gun export controls are some of the most egregious violators of human/individual/moral/ethical rights.
 
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