U.S. News Blurb Re: Beretta 9mm in Iraq

[NewsShooter]

I was recently an imbedded journalist with the 101st in the gulf and saw many M9's that had problems jamming. Almost all were due to dirt and not cleaning daily. The M9's I saw were old and very worn.
As to the ammo, well 9mm ball, even the +p that is mil spec is not enough. Sorry to say though, it is against international laws of war to use anything but ball.
I own a 92FS and it is a tack driver. I would not trade it for any other.

 

[GooseGestapo]

People are forgetting too, that in the grander scheme of things, the M-9 is a very minor player.

Yes, the guns are worn, and the 9mm ball is performing, or not performing as it has for over 100yrs. No suprises.

The military has problems with its guns/ equipment in warfare.
Again, no new suprises.

Everyone forgets that we have just come out from under an administration that was the most anti-military in the history of our nation. We have recently undergone the largest military scale down and cut back in our nations history. Many forget that just 6 years ago, we were losing Sr. NCO's who were weeks away from locking in their retirement to frivolous/unbased complaints and morale was at an all time low. Many things get lost or swept under the rug in these circumstances. Certainly this is the case with a "minor weapons system" such as the M-9.

Was it the best alternative at the time it was adopted? I like to think not. But that is hindsight. Lets just do what it takes to make the best of the situation for the Troops in harms way.

I have a nephew that is over there now....Bagdad P.D. if you will. They are cleaning and maintainancing their equipment daily. In a recent communique' from his camp while still in Kuwait, he was complaining about the 'daily sand storms'. Eating and using a napkin was like eating mud and using a piece of sandpaper to wipe. Needless to say what it is doing to their equipment, most of which needing replacement the last time it was used. Things are tough, and WE WILL PREVAIL......AGAIN.

BTW.... HE'S MANAGED TO LATCH ONTO A SIG.... LUCKY HIM !!!

 

[Sean Smith]

The Armed Services, to save a buck or two, have largely bought non-OEM replacement mags (made by Checkmate, IIRC) for their Berettas and the results speak for themselves.

Assuming that is correct, that would explain alot. 3/4 of the M9 pistols I was issued in the Army were unreliable. Out on a pistol range. Right after a nice cleaning. And no, I wasn't one of those boneheands who was too dumb to maintain it properly.

Meanwhile, all the civilian Beretta shooters bragged about how reliable their guns were.

 

[bountyhunter]

That said, anecdotal or not it is no stretch to realize that 9mm ball is not a great stopper.

With all due respect, NATO ammo is 124 gr ball loaded up to +p+ level of velocity. It is definitely lethal and considering the enemy usually is wearing many mayers of heavy clothes (so penetration is paramount), it may even be the OPTIMUM choice as opposed to the old flying ashtray.

 

[firestar]

Meanwhile, all the civilian Beretta shooters bragged about how reliable their guns were.

I think there is a big difference between military M-9s and civilian Berettas. I rank my Beretta 92fs as the most reliable pistol I have EVER fired! It has NEVER jammed and I shoot it a lot. It will feed anything I can put in it, even Wollf and Blazer ammo. One time I put a Wolff 9mm that had the bullet set back about a 1/4" and it locked up the slide and the case stuck stuck in the chamber. Other than that, which would have happened to any pistol, the gun has been ultra reliable.

My Sigs, Glocks, Hi Powers, SKS and AK-47 have jammed on me and they are supposed to be the most reliable of all semi-autos. Of all pistols I have EVER owned, I trust the Beretta more and use it as my home defense gun. I have factory hi-caps and after market Pachmayer 10 round mags, and none ahve jammed.

 

[SodaPop]

When was the last time we were actually in a shooting war? Vietnam? This the first time in almost 30yrs that our troops are seeing combat on the ground... on a large scale.

I'm sure somebody just opened up a dusty old door and shipped a heaping pile of worn out magazines to the troops.



Does anyone know anyone that is an armorer in the military?

How many armorers are there per infantry?

Somebody needs to send a few more of them over there.


P.S. My Beretta want half-cock on me about 2 months ago because the recoil spring had seen 8000rds. I could pull the trigger faster than the gun could cycle. If I wouldn't have changed the springs in my Beretta, when I did, I'm sure I would have had malfuntions sooner or later.

Its not the gun.... It's the idiots that don't maintain their weapons.

 

[DonGlock26]

I wonder how the G-17's bought by the Austrian Army back in the late 1980's are performing? Seriously, that would end a lot of arguing, if the Glocks look great and the U.S. pistols don't. The DoD's need for double-strike capabilty is a joke. I think the Glock would have been a tougher service pistol w/ steel sights.

 

[Al Thompson]

Unless things have changed, armorers are supply clerks. Hand'em out, hand'em in. I can't understand why someone wouldn't clean his/her weapon on a daily basis or why there wasn't an NCO around to make it happen.

I suspect most of the problems are in the non-combat arms organizations. Sadly, IMHO, most of these folks simply aren't exposed to the kind of upbringing that they need to set tough standards and maintain them.

 

[BigG]

9mm ball is a great stopper, as long as your victim is kneeling and your target is the back of his neck. Just ask the Gestapo.

 

[Boats]

I wonder how the G-17's bought by the Austrian Army back in the late 1980's are performing? Seriously, that would end a lot of arguing, if the Glocks look great and the U.S. pistols don't. The DoD's need for double-strike capabilty is a joke. I think the Glock would have been a tougher service pistol w/ steel sights.

You're kidding right? The US Military actually uses their pistols with young recruits, many of whom are much like their predecessors who managed to negligently discharge the ole 1911, a pistol with a couple of manual safeties on it! Some of the slower Army recruits would undoubtedly, and "accidentally" die at the hands of some of their cohorts armed with Glocks.

The Austrian Army is smaller than the California Highway Patrol and probably has a smaller ammunition budget to boot. I haven't heard of any schnitzel fights involving the First Mechanized Lederhosen Division lately.

What is a joke is that some lowest common denominator cop gun that hasn't ever been adopted wholesale by any army that actually fights, is considered by anyone to the best combat sidearm going.

I do agree with you that a Glock would be tougher than it is with steel sights mounted on it.

 

[Higgins]

Lots of good comments. Just what I hoped for when I posted the U.S. News quote.

My purpose wasn't to start a flame war of whether .45 or 9mm is better, or whether the Beretta is the ideal handgun.

The lack of "stopping power" comment from actual fighting men does seem to follow the 9mm around like a bad shadow an awful lot through history, though. Seems I've read that the British said the same thing during WWII when their Tommy guns were replaced/supplemented by the Sten.

I also think it's significant that troop complaints about stopping power in the Philipines played a part in the replacement of the .38 revolver by the .45 1911.

I no ballistics expert and I'm not saying one caliber trumps the others. Just making the observation that stopping power has repeatedly been raised by fighting troops as a concern and has led to military changes. Perhaps it will do so again, given the apparently poor condition of current M9's.

Wouldn't that be nice. A new set of U.S. pistol trials to keep us all entertained and arguing over the merits of which pistol should win/should have won 'til we are blue in the face (or red in the face as the case might be).

 

[firestar]

I wonder how the G-17's bought by the Austrian Army back in the late 1980's are performing? Seriously, that would end a lot of arguing, if the Glocks look great and the U.S. pistols don't. The DoD's need for double-strike capabilty is a joke. I think the Glock would have been a tougher service pistol w/ steel sights.

The only way we would know for sure is if our military adopted the Glock and used it for 20 years like the Beretta. I bet there would be the same type of problems as with the 1911 and the Beretta.

If you don't maintain your guns, they will mess up on you, its not that complicated.

 

[dsk]

dsk,
How come on an M9 it's "too many openings to allow sand and grit to get inside and cause problems" but on an M1911A1 it's gaps and loose tolerances to allow the junk to get out of the gun?

Good one, Tamara. However the "gaps and loose tolerances" on my M1911A1s just don't seem to be as big as that big hole in the top of a Beretta slide. Or the two big holes underneath where the locking lugs fit.

One possible reason for Beretta reliability issues may also be the result of the UM-84 holster system. It does a very poor job of completely covering the handgun. When you're walking around in a blowing sandstorm or lying in the bottom of a sand foxhole you'd be surprised just how much foreign matter can enter the exposed top and back of that holster. Later when you finally pull out your weapon you'll find all that gunk made its way into the firearm and it no longer works.

 

[happyguy]

I have never been to Mesopotamia, however I do have some experience with the M9 in hostile environments.

I was a USAF Security Policeman stationed at Clark AB, RPI during the Mt. Pinatubo eruption and evacuation. We stuck around to the very last and then high tailed it to an agricultural college about 20 miles away from the volcano.

The ash and grit got in to everything. All you had to do was rack the slide on your sidearm and you knew it had become a single shot weapon. There was no way to prevent it short of carrying the weapon in a sealed plastic bag.

The ash also contains a small amount of sulphuric acid and it quickly ate away the blued finish of the M9.

As for stopping power of 9mm ball, before we got the M9 we were carrying S&W Combat Masterpiece's loaded with .38 Special FMJ.

The M-16's and GAU-5a's did much better. Insert a magazine, close the dust cover and make sure the muzzle cap was in place and the interior of the weapon was pretty well sealed against the ash

 

[happyguy]

You can clean your weapon as often as you like. But if you low crawl through the sand and dirt, your weapon will get dirty, it's a fact of life. The deeper the sand the worse it is. Keeping your weapon well oiled just makes things worse.

I hear all you folks complaining that our troops didn't take care of their M9's and that's why they malfunctioned. Well, why don't we hear the same complaints about the M-16/M-4? I'll tell you why. It's because the M9 doesn't hold up to the combat environment.

The Berreta is a beautifully engineered, manufactured, and finished weapon. I've put many rounds down range with one and have seen literally tens of thounds of rounds fired at the range without a malfunction. It just doesn't have what it takes for combat operations, that's all.

 

[Delmar]

Sand and reliability issues....I've heard the WWII military used to issue plastic bags for the assault troops to cover their weapons so that salt water and sand would not gum up their weapons.
In some of the conversations with my father and some of his friends, the military also issued brand new rifles to the troops just prior to their operation.
In my time, we were taught to keep the dust cover closed on our M-16's as well as covering the flash hider with a prophylactic to keep the gunk out, and you could shoot through the rubber.
Sidearms are going to be a lot tougher as they have no dust cover, but especially in regards to the Beretta with the open topped slide, one would think that some type of cellophane wrapper could be placed over the slide to help keep the sand out of the action?

 

[DonGlock26]

Boats,

1. Glocks can be set-up with 5,8,&12# trigger springs depending on the desires of the owner. Safety is in the mind of the user. I know of an incident where a SEAL killed another SEAL with a P226 during a room clearing exercise. It happens.

2. Small Armies train too. Ask the Red Army about the Finnish Army.

3. When it comes to small arms, simple & tough is a virtue. I like Berettas , but the pistol is based on the P-38. The desert is no place for a pistol with an exposed trigger bar.


I still would like to know how the original G-17's bought on of Gaston's first contract are faring after 15 years of use. If they look like the day they were bought, I would be impressed.

 

[Pico]

Recruits with Glocks

Quote
-----------------
What is a joke is that some lowest common denominator cop gun that hasn't ever been adopted wholesale by any army that actually fights, is considered by anyone to the best combat sidearm going.
-----------------

Our new recruits in the military would be happier and more proficient with G17's and 19's then Beretta's. I still think the military blew it when the Sigs weren't chosen but Glock pistols would be a great choice in a combat role despite being a "cheap cop gun". Mainly, they would be more reliable in adverse conditions than the 92FS and less complex to maintain properly.

One advantage of Glock and Sig would be the choice of multiple calibers in similar weapon systems: 9 mm and .45 in Glock 17 and 21 and Sig P226 and P220. You could give the clerks and airplane drivers 9 mm. The marine recon units and CQB Seals teams could go with .45 if it was needed or even .357 sig.

I don't want to start another 9 versus .45 series. If I was wearing a uniform, I would care more about .223 versus .308 Winchester. Any opinion on how our .223 chambered battle rifles stack up to 7.62 X 39? NATO could piss up a rope if we weren't shooting their rounds for all I care.

How about the CZ 9mm for the military? This would support an ally that stood with us in Iraq, the Czech Republic. You could even go around cocked and locked if you wanted. The inside slide design on these pistols should be very good against sand infiltration.

The notion that new recruits would be prone to AD is more a reflection on the level of training and the quality of the instructors than it is the ability of recruits. I think our training with live fire practice and exercises has come a long way since the day Boats was talking about.

I trust Ollie North when he was broadcasting in Iraq commenting on the great quality of our men and women in the military today. For what they are doing over there and have already done, I don't feel worthy of their sacrifices.

Pico

 

[Blueduck]

IMHO Cheap mags, overcleaning when NCO's are bored or have no budget for "real" training, and frankly unqualified or underequiped amorers who can only say "Clean it" are the real problems not troops or designs

The troops stretching the mag springs tells me a lot. It's a "quick fix" that only solves the problem for a few rounds then leaves the already weak spring in even worse shape than it was before for the next guy. The fact that nobody even close to the field has that little basic bit of info is a real issue

Back in '87 at least the amorers were slackers in extreme. Every malfunction of a 16 was due to it being "dirty". You could clean and lube it perfectly pass thier "inspection" fire 3 shots start getting jams and they would say "Your weapons filthy clean it". Pointing out the filth was the carbon from your previous 3 shots would only get you pushups form your NCO. If a part was literally not broken in two pieces it would not get replaced. Another fun thing was watching the very rare DI actually find and acknowledge a bad magazine- What did we do? get a "new" one and put the bad one with bent feed lips right back in the box for the next guy

I think thats really the main reason you see such a huge difference between civillian and millitary impressions of the reliability of both the M-16 and 92 series. Civillians realize polishing the finish off a weapon with CLP will not fix a weak spring, tune an extractor, or align gas rings correctly.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Didn't we see the same complaints after Somalia, and the M4/SS109 combination ammo debate?

Living things that get shot don't act like ballistic gel or steel plates, sometimes go you gotta shoot again.

Nothing short of big ??? bomb assures a one shot stop, provided you get the right target.

As far as worn springs, thats a fact of life, springs wear out, maybe the Military needs to get some new springs.

As far as the pistols being used... I've seen so many photos/video clips of US soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq doing house clearing drills armed only with a pistol (not the whole team but the point man), no doubt this isn't "Army Training" but some sort of field expedient response measure. Maybe its as simple as if the first guy gets shot the 20" AR slung across his chest gets snagged up in the doorway... maybe it was just the poor GI who was chosen to run with the camera crew was too tired to hump a rifle... but I've seen it a lot.

And not to add insult to injury but the last conflict the Austrian Army was involved in, they weren't exactly on the right side. Now I'm not suggesting the only tough duty an issued G17 pulled was patrolling Vienna's red light district, but citing 20+ years of service to anything that hasn't seen combat is pretty thin.

Case in point: the US was VERY happy with its WW1 issue "papoose" backpack. They used it for 20+ years. it was junk. Ditto with early issue boots. Ditto with many things developed during peacetime.

 

[DonGlock26]

Dr. Rob,

The M-9's woes aren't from a few weeks in a combat zone. They are from years of wear, tear ,and abuse in peacetime. I'm of the opinion that Glocks and Sigs would have held up better to rough handling.

What side Austria was on in WWII has nothing to do with how the G-17 functions after 15 years of service in a peacetime military. G-17's have served in the field on America's Police forces for almost that long. My point was the state of Austria's original issued G-17's would be a good comparison to the M-9. How about the British Military's P226's? The Brit's were on our side and fought in the Falklands, G W I ,and G.W. II.

Israel's Anti-terrorist units(YAMAM, SHABACH,& IDF SF) are using the G-17 & G-19 ( www.isayeret.com) I assume they know a few things about operations in combat zones and desert climates.

 

[prisoner6]

. I'm of the opinion that Glocks and Sigs would have held up better to rough handling.

Rough handling is one thing, abuse is another. If you have worn out faulty springs in a Glock, a Sig, or a Bersa you will have problems. Guns are mechanical items, they wear out, and they fail. Even mighty Gaston's creation won't work without the proper maintenance in the long run. Even allowing for polymer frames being more forgiving, why would the Sig necessarily hold up any better to this level of mistreatment. Same alloy frame, same steel slide and metal springs. I imagine it would hold up about exactly the same.

 

[45auto]

Larry Vickers, a special ops member and well known 1911 pistolsmith did a sand test on various guns.

I believe he stated all the handguns needed some "manipulation" to work after being doused in sand, but the H&K model he tested did the best.
A 1911, he tested two, did second best. The Glock failed the test completely. He thought perhaps the "butt plug" would have helped the Glock.

He didn't test the Beretta, but has made the statement that it's the most reliable, out of the box, centerfire pistol, in his opinion.

He also mentioned, can't remember, about the need for better/different holsters for this type of climate.

 

[Boats]

Here it is, Larry Vicker's Infamous Sand Test Thread at 1911forum.com

 

[Blueduck]

He didn't test the Beretta, but has made the statement that it's the most reliable, out of the box, centerfire pistol, in his opinion.