Uberti 1873 Replicas - .357 Mag: Full power loads?

[RugerOldArmy]

I have a Uberti 1873 in .45 Colt. When I got it a few years back, they had one in .357 Mag, with really nice wood.

I would have gotten it, but I was uncertain if it could handle a full power .357 Mag load. The 1873 has the toggle-link design...which is great for Cowboy loads.

I have a couple of .357 Smiths, and reload .357 Mag. I was concerned my sons could eventually use a full power load, and have a serious problem.

Can the Uberti 1873 Rifles in .357 Mag handle a full powered load? (Say 14.2 Gr. of 2400 and a 158 Gr bullet?)

 

[Old judge creek]

I have several Uberti 1866 & 1873 pattern rifles in 44-40 and 45 Colt. They've served me long and well for many years but I've never loaded them "hot".

They share the toggle link system and it was designed for relatively mild loads compared to what we regularly shoot today. For what it is, its grand, but the toggle link is simply not strong enough to withstand full power 357 loads for any length of time IMO... again, that's my opinion.

 

[briansmithwins]

Does the manual shed any light?

Anyone written to the manufacturer?

BSW

 

[RugerOldArmy]

The manual for my .45 colt 1873, is somewhere deep in the attic. I had never planned to reload/shoot Ruger loads in .45 Colt, given my New Vaquero wouldn't handle them, and a standard load from my 1873 (8.5 Gr Unique and a 255 RNFP) sailed right through two deer at 75-100 yards.

In .357 Mag, there is more steel around the chamber...and likely it would have less bolt thrust than a .45 Colt Ruger-Only load. (Ever shoot one of those? It makes a .357 Mag full powered load seem pretty tame.)

 

[Jim Watson]

It had to pass Italian proof, so it isn't going to blow up.
Maybe Driftwood J. can say something about durability.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

I am assuming that you are talking about the Uberti replica of the Winchester 1873 rifle. The replica of the Colt SAA is also sometimes called an 1873 since it was introduced that same year.

Uberti offers a carbine version of the '73 in .44 Magnum. If I were looking for a rifle for shooting full power .44 Magnum loads, I don't think the '73 would be my first choice but that rifle also passed the Italian proof tests, so I would think the question would be one of long term durability.

I don't have any qualms about running SAAMI spec .357 Magnum ammo through my '73, although its regular diet is medium velocity .38 Specials loads.

 

[Panzerschwein]

These are cowboy guns and are meant for light CAS loads methinks.

The toggle link design is not the best for long term durability with hot magnums. Keep to either .38 special or lightly loads CAS .357 magnums. The original calibers for these guns operated at MUCH lower pressures, and had less bolt thrust.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

These are cowboy guns and are meant for light CAS loads methinks.

The toggle link design is not the best for long term durability with hot magnums. Keep to either .38 special or lightly loads CAS .357 magnums. The original calibers for these guns operated at MUCH lower pressures, and had less bolt thrust.

I disagree. Any modern gun, even a replica of an old gun that is marked .357 Magnum will be 100% safe to shoot ammo that is within the SAAMI pressure limits. No company's lawyers would allow a company to add the .357 Magnum roll-mark to the barrel of a gun that can't safely shoot that ammo...

 

[Panzerschwein]

I never said it wasn't safe to shoot due to pressure issues, the gun won't blow up, but the greater pressure and thrust of hot .357 magnums vs. the original BP loads of .44-40 could well possibly cause eventual wear and damage to the toggle link action, which is not much more than the mechanism what keeps a school buss door shut.

These modern guns are meant for CAS shooters and cowboy target. That means either .38 special or very lightly loaded .357 magnums, basically ".38 in a .357 case" if you will.

 

[RainDodger]

I have a Uberti '73 in .357 Magnum. It shoots any modern .357 magnum loads just fine. My Gunsmith also agrees with that statement. I've had no problems with mine. It's a modern rifle, made to shoot modern cartridges. It's just an older design. Works fine.

Edit: ... and it says ".357 Magnum" on the barrel, not "Only Light Cowboy .38 Special Loads"....

 

[RugerOldArmy]

It looks like the consensus is similar to that on old Smith Model 19(s).

Full power .357 Mag loads are fine, but may cause more 'wear and tear'?

 

[Malamute]

I recall a posting elsewhere by Steve Young of Steves Gunz (long time Cowboy Action gunsmith) that all of the 66's and 73's wear and loosen up over time if used heavily. The 357's more so when used with magnum loads. I wouldnt worry about it unless you are shooting tens of thousands of rounds/year. If it gets loose, have new links and pins made for it. There may be other ways to get them back in spec also.

Before anyone mentions it (it seems common in threads about 73's), the gun is not going to blow up or the bolt magically shoot out the back of the gun if overloaded (impossible, as the bolt is confined in the action, the firing pin extension hole in the frame isnt large enough for the bolt to fit through). The guns get loose and stop functioning before that happens. I've not seen any evidence it EVER happened. If you wear it out, you wear it out. Get it fixed, or get another gun and keep shooting. If its a real concern, and you think you'll shoot that much, get a 92 type action. You arent likely to loosen one up unless its a 454. Few shoot them enough to wear them out though.

If you do the math, the cost of enough ammo to wear the gun out may be more than the cost of the gun, possibly by a LOT.

 

[MEHavey]

The toggle link -- whether 357 or 44 -- can reliably stand the bolt thrust force
associated with 45 Colt SAAMI pressures of 14,000 CUP/PSI**

If you do the surface area math comparing the total head areas of the 357 vs 45,
you'll find that the 357 can be loaded to 38+P pressures (20-22ksi) without any
problem over the life of the gun.



** (Yeah, I know)

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Italian guns are all proofed in government run proof houses. That means they will have had at least one round put through them that developed about 30% more pressure than the standard Maximum load. Since it is Europe, they usea a different standard than here in the US, where we use the SAAMI standards. The European standards are slightly higher than SAAMI standards. So that means, the gun will have survived proof testing with at least one proof load.

Whether or not the gun can survive the pounding from prolonged firing with full power 357 Magnum loads is another question. Surviving one proof load is not the same as pounding the gun repeatedly.

Yes, the toggle link action guns are not as strong as a more modern design such as the Winchester Model 1892 or the Marlin Model 1894. Different type of lockup.

Anecdotal story: A number of years ago a friend found a used 357 Mag Uberti 1873 at a local store for a good price. When he got it home his father in law (an experienced gunsmith) noticed a crack in the frame. My friend returned the gun and got his money back. Was the crack caused by standard factory spec 357 Mag loads? Was it caused by loads that were more powerful than SAAMI Max loads? No idea. But the frame was definitely cracked. Remember, it is not just the lock up that is weak with a toggle link gun. The frame is basically a skeleton frame with side plates applied. The sideplates add no strength to the frame. So the cross sections of steel that have to withstand the pounding of recoil are no where near as strong as the frame of a 1892.

Moral of the story. I do not own a '73 chambered for 357 Mag, all my toggle link guns are chambered for 44-40 and only get fired with Black Powder. If I owned a toggle link rifle chambered for 357 Mag, I think I would err on the side of caution and not put many full power factory 357 Mag rounds though it. That's my take on it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

the gun is not going to blow up or the bolt magically shoot out the back of the gun if overloaded (impossible, as the bolt is confined in the action, the firing pin extension hole in the frame isnt large enough for the bolt to fit through).

Well, not quite. With the old design, it was fairly common that the firing pin extension would indeed shoot back out of the frame if the gun fired out of battery. It has happened many times. Not the bolt, the firing pin extension. The only thing keeping the firing pin extension attached to the bolt in the old design was a pin about 1/16" in diameter. If the gun is allowed to fire out of battery, in other words before the toggles were lined up, recoil can drive the bolt back with great force. The toggles fold, and the lever jerks forward. I was at a match one time where an out of battery discharge happened. When the lever slammed forward it broke right off, stinging the shooters hand. In the worst case, the bolt can fly back with enough velocity that when it stops against the frame, the firing pin extension keeps right on going, shearing off the pin that secures it to the bolt. Right out of the frame. In this situation, just about the only thing that prevents the firing pin extension from going right into the shooter's eye is the fact that it hits the hammer first, deflecting it up towards the shooter's cheek bone.

In this photo, the cylindrical piece sticking out of the rear of the frame is the Firing Pin Extension. It serves two purposes. The hammer strikes it to fire a cartridge. Then, when the lever is worked, the Firing Pin Extension comes back and cocks the hammer. That is what this photo is showing. The lever is all the way forward and the Firing Pin Extension is all the way back, having just cocked the hammer. The Firing Pin Extension is a smooth cylinder. The only thing retaining it in the frame is that 1/16" pin. If bolt thrust shears the pin, the Firing Pin Extension will fly right out of the frame, towards the shooters face.







Because of this, Uberti changed the design of the bolt a few years ago. On newer guns, the 1/16" diameter pin is gone and a tab very similar to the original arrangement with the Winchester 1873 keeps the firing pin extension in position. It is an improvement because it is stronger than the pin arrangement.

Of course, a while back many shooters were removing the Lever Safety from their guns. The Lever Safety prevents the trigger from moving until the lever is completely closed and the toggles are lined up. This is not a new lawyer driven idea, the originals had the Lever Safety too. The Uberti Lever Safety uses a very stiff spring, and it takes so much 'lever squeezing' to fire the gun that a lot of shooters removed them. Without the Lever Safety in place, Out of Battery discharges are more likely. Fortunately there are now replacement springs available which allow the Lever Safety to function as intended without needing so much 'lever squeezing'.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Once Again

Had a few more thoughts about the Uberti '73 chambered for 357 Mag. As somebody already implied, no firearm company is going to stamp a caliber marking on a gun, knowing that the gun could not tolerate that cartridge. The Uberti replica of the 1866 Winchester has a brass frame, similar to the originals. It is not available chambered for 357 Magnum. Only 45 Colt, 44-40, and 38 Special. Uberti clearly recognizes that they don't want to have to replace any brass framed '66s that were fired with cartridges it could not handle, so it is not available chambered for 357 Mag, only 38 Special. The '73 does have a skeletonized frame, as I mentioned earlier. But it is made with modern steel, not the same iron or steel that was used 100 years ago.

Steve Young is a very well respected Cowboy gunsmith. He specializes in 1892 replicas, but he certainly knows the toggle link guns inside out too. I would have to agree with him about '66s and '73s loosening up over time. But bear in mind that in CAS the top shooters fire thousands of rounds per year through their rifles. Sometimes the lever cam wears out they shoot them so much. Just wears out from the friction of working the action.

I have not heard of any other 357 Mag '73s developing cracks on the frame like my friend's did. But most of the guys I shoot with fire them with very lightly loaded 38s. This may be a case like the S&W Model 19. Fire too many of the wrong rounds, and you may have a problem.

 

[Malamute]

Good posts Mr Johnson, thanks.

I recall seeing the info on the 76's when Winchester overloaded them with various overloads, up to I believe double powder charges and triple bullets, still no serious problem. They then fired that load with one of the links removed. It bound up the action. Once cleared, they put the other link back in and it functioned again.

All of the Winchesters I'm aware of let go on the underside or side of the barrel if and when they actually come apart. Your story is the first I've heard of the firing pin extension coming out. Fired out of battery it makes some sense. Are you aware of it happening when in battery?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I never said it wasn't safe to shoot due to pressure issues, the gun won't blow up, but the greater pressure and thrust of hot .357 magnums vs. the original BP loads of .44-40 could well possibly cause eventual wear and damage to the toggle link action, which is not much more than the mechanism what keeps a school buss door shut.

These modern guns are meant for CAS shooters and cowboy target. That means either .38 special or very lightly loaded .357 magnums, basically ".38 in a .357 case" if you will.

The OP wasn't asking about prolonged use of .357 Magnum loads. He specifically said, "I was concerned my sons could eventually use a full power load, and have a serious problem." I think I answered that question as asked.

 

[Davek1977]

No modern manufacturer is going to put out a rifle that is unsafe to use with standard factory loads, IMO

 

[CraigC]

That's typically true but I've read repeated warnings about using full pressure .357 loads in the 1873's. That said, Brian Pearce also believes the .45's can be run at 21-22,000psi.

 

[MEHavey]

Brian Pearce also believes the .45's can be run at 21-22,000psi.

I'm aware [and make great use of] Brian's articles on the Tier 1-3 45 Colt loads in revolvers,
but have not seen an article on the `73Win.
Is there a web cite?

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Thanks for all the feedback folks!

 

[Bullseye]

Here's the manual download.

http://www.uberti.com/sites/default/files/originals/product-manuals/1873_sporting_rifle.pdf

SPECIAL SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS
1) Uberti lever action rifles should never be carried with a cartridge in the chamber.
2) Carrying this style of rifle with a cartridge in the chamber can result in an accidental
discharge if the firearm is accidentally dropped or if the hammer is struck.
3) The lever locking mechanism is designed to prevent an accidental discharge.
However, no mechanical device is foolproof and, accordingly, these procedures
must be followed.
4) Due to the fact that in a tubular magazine rifle the cartridges are stacked one
behind the other, only factory ammunition should be used.
5) We recommend against using old ammunition in these rifles as primers, powder
and brass cartridge cases can deteriorate and cause damage to the rifle or injury
to the shooter or others.
6) Uberti assumes no liability for incidents occurring through the use of reloaded
ammunitions.
Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accordance
with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards.

 

[MEHavey]

...warnings about using full pressure .357 loads in the 1873's. That said,
Brian Pearce also believes the .45's can be run at 21-22,000psi.

The total bolt trust (the force on the weak-link/toggle-pins) of a 22ksi 45 Colt is exactly
the same as a 35ksi 357Mag load. (Do the surface area math on the case diameters).

If therefore one (the Tier-2 45 Colt) is OK, then it follows that the SAAMI Max 357 Mag is just fine.
(But that doesn't fit the warnings -- so there's a disconnect).

Having both (a `73Win in each of a 44-40 and a 357Mag), I will be sticking to 15ksi/CUP for the 44,
and +P (22ksi) for the 357. (Would a few high-pressure round be unsafe ? Likely not . \
But a steady diet would not be in the gun's best interest.

 

[CraigC]

I'm aware [and make great use of] Brian's articles on the Tier 1-3 45 Colt loads in revolvers,
but have not seen an article on the `73Win.
Is there a web cite?

It wasn't an article, it was a response to a letter. One would have to do some searching to determine what issue of Rifle or Handloader it was in.

If therefore one (the Tier-2 45 Colt) is OK, then it follows that the SAAMI Max 357 Mag is just fine.
(But that doesn't fit the warnings -- so there's a disconnect).

I understood it was conflicting when I posted it.