Uberti 1873 Replicas - .357 Mag: Full power loads?

Status
Not open for further replies.
All of the Winchesters I'm aware of let go on the underside or side of the barrel if and when they actually come apart. Your story is the first I've heard of the firing pin extension coming out. Fired out of battery it makes some sense. Are you aware of it happening when in battery?

No. The failure mode I reported only happens when the links are out of battery. When in battery, the action of a toggle link rifle is a lot stronger than some suppose.

Here are some photos that will help demonstrate the phenomenon. I removed one of the sideplates from my Uberti '73 and photographed the links in three different conditions.

In this photo, the lever is closed and the links are locked in battery with the bolt all the way forward. This is the condition of the links when the rifle is fired. Notice the three pivot points of the links. At the front, the front link is attached to the bolt. The middle joint is attached to the lever, and the rear pivot is attached to the frame. Notice the three pivot points are in line. Actually, when a toggle link rifle is in battery, the middle pivot point is slightly past being in line with the other two. This is called over cam. In this condition, the links are very strong and will take the full bolt thrust of the fired cartridge.

links%20at%20battery_zps7okmwhvi.jpg




This next photo shows the position of the links with the bolt all the way back. The lever is all the way forward. The pivot at the middle of the links has been pulled down by the extension at the front of the lever. As the links fold, the bolt is pulled back, and the firing pin extension extends back through the frame and cocks the hammer. The lever safety is clearly visible in this photo. Two portions of it are visible. The rear portion is the bit of steel poking down about an inch behind the trigger. The front portion of the lever safety is snuggled up directly behind the trigger. With the lever safety in this position, the trigger cannot move. The lever safety rotates on an internal pin mounted in the lower tang. In the first photo, the lever has depressed the rear portion of the lever safety, and pivoted the front up so it no longer prevents the trigger from moving.

links%20folded_zpswwbjba4o.jpg




In this last photo, the links are slightly out of battery. Notice the middle pivot point is slightly lower than the other two. In this condition, the links have no strength at all. I liken it to what would happen if somebody sneaked up behind you and pushed your knees forward from behind. Your legs would fold and you would fall like a ton of bricks. In the same way, in this out of battery condition the links have no strength at all. If a cartridge were to fire, the bolt thrust would shove the bolt straight back, folding the links. When the links folded, the lever would be thrown forward. This will often badly bruise the shooter's fingers. As I said earlier, I saw the results of one of these out of battery discharges where the lever was being grasped firmly by the shooter and it broke right off, at the thinnest point of the 'trigger guard'. Notice the small pin directly above the front pivot of the front link. That is the 1/16" diameter pin I mentioned that attaches the firing pin extension to the bolt. That is all that keeps the firing pin extension in place. With a forceful enough thrust, when the links come to a hard stop against the frame, that pin can shear and the firing pin extension can exit the frame with a lot of velocity.

links%20out%20of%20battery_zpsbnh7bxcb.jpg

Nobody here may have heard of firing pin extensions leaving the frame, but I assure you this is a very real and well known phenomenon that has been discussed in the CAS world for many years. In order for it to happen, there has to be a perfect storm of circumstances. First, the shooter must have removed the lever safety from the gun. This used to be a very common practice in CAS until the ramifications became well known. The spring that keeps the lever safety in the 'safe' position in these rifles is very stiff. Many shooters simply removed the entire assembly. Second, don't forget that many CAS shooters can shoot one of these rifles blindingly fast. Dumping 10 shots in less than 2 seconds is very common. A little bit of sloppy trigger work, allowing the trigger finger to brush the trigger as the lever closes can make this happen if the lever safety has been removed. Lastly, the extractor needs to have snapped over the rim of the cartridge and be holding it snug against the bolt as the bolt shoves the cartridge into the chamber. With a round snugged up against the bolt, it will fire if the rifle is slightly out of battery and the trigger is tripped, dropping the hammer.

Now that the dangers of removing the lever safety are better known, few shooters remove it any more. And now that there are lighter, replacement springs on the market, there is no reason to remove the lever safety. But I still come across the occasional shooter who has removed it, thinking removing in will allow him to shoot just a little bit faster than the next guy. As I said earlier, Uberti changed the design of the bolt a few years ago specifically because of the problem of flying firing pin extensions, new guns do not employ a thin pin to keep the firing pin extension with the bolt, there is a sturdier attachment method.

Regarding the strength, or lack of it, of the toggle link rifles; a year or two ago Uberti started chambering the 1873 replica for 44 Magnum. Yes, 44 Magnum. I had a chance to inspect (not fire) one of these 44 Mag '73s a couple of years ago. I would not buy one, but with modern steel, Uberti obviously feels confident about chambering the '73 for 44 Mag.

The story about the overloaded 1876 Winchesters is true. The 1876 Winchester was the Big Brother of the 1873 WiInchester. It was heavier and had a longer frame to allow more powerful 'rifle' cartridges to be chambered. In response to a letter to the editor of a sporting magazine of the time, Oliver Winchester directed his engineers to run a 1876 rifle through a torture test. The rifle was chambered for 45-75 WCF. This cartridge is slightly shorter in length than the 45-70, but had a bit more powder capacity. Tests were conducted with overloads. The most powerful of these overloads far exceeded the case capacity of the 45-75, so the most powerful rounds were loaded 'muzzle loader' style, with powder and bullets being dumped down the bore.

The links on these rifles are actually double, with one set on each side of the bolt. The Winchester engineers first removed the links on one side, seriously weakening the action, and fired 20 rounds with no ill effects. Next they put the link back in place and seriously over loaded the gun. With a charge of 105 grains of powder and a 700 grain bullet, the gun 'worked well'. 165 grains of powder behind 3 bullets (1,050 grains of lead) did not faze the gun. The powder charge was upped to 165 grains behind 1,105 grains of lead. Still no problem. Next, 203 grains of powder and 1,750 grains of lead. Still no problem. At 203 grains of powder and 2,100 grains of lead, the lever started getting stiff to operate. Finally, with 203 grains of powder and 2,880 grains of lead, "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm."

Not bad for a toggle link rifle.
 
Last edited:
Driftwood Johnson said:
Regarding the strength, or lack of it, of the toggle link rifles; a year or two ago Uberti started chambering the 1873 replica for 44 Magnum. Yes, 44 Magnum. I had a chance to inspect (not fire) one of these 44 Mag '73s a couple of years ago. I would not buy one, but with modern steel, Uberti obviously feels confident about chambering the '73 for 44 Mag.

I have a Uberti 1873 I bought in 1991 in .44-40 and a Browning B-92 in .44 Magnum I bought a couple years later. Having "felt" the difference in the two via recoil I remain surprised that Uberti would chamber the '73 in .44 magnum ... but I must admit that despite how I might feel about it I am forced to believe that new metallurgy in combination with a 'stronger than hitherto known' toggle link can actually handle it safely.
BTW, do you know if original 1873s used that same kind of pin to attach the firingpin extension to the bolt?
 
Just to be contrary: regarding the inherent strength and durability of toggle-link locking systems, both the Maxim and Vickers machine guns used them. The gun lives were in terms of hundreds of thousands of full-power military rifle rounds. Another example of course is the Luger: I have not heard of anyone damaging one from full-power loads.
 
With all due respect, just because they have toggle links, the similarity ends there between the old Winchester guns and Lugers and machine guns. Not really a fair comparison.
 
This begs of the follow up question.

What bullet weight and material type (copper, brass or lead) generates the highest pressure and is hardest on the gun? For example the use of 125 gr. jacketed bullets are well known for flame cutting and barrel erosion on S&W K-Frame revolvers whereas the 158 gr. jacketed bullets don't have this issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top