Uberti 1876 in 50-95

Status
Not open for further replies.
How is the toggle linkage in the big bore Uberti lever guns? I have a 1873 Uberti 45 Colt rifle. These are sweet lever guns. They say the design was hard on the linkage.
Maybe they fixed that in reproduction models and in the 1876.
CONGRATS on that rifle and enjoy!
 
I wish I could tell you Bullseye, but I don't have an original to compare it to. To be honest, it looks shockingly weak and frail compared to just about anything. The entire force of the back thrust, for lack of a better word, is borne by one small pin connecting the toggles, which are lined up in what is basically a straight line. I was surprised to see the toggles are two pieces each, right and left. As you can see in the pic, the center pin has a big job to do!

There was a Guns and Ammo write up that said these guns could take 29,000 PSI. I'm not buying that !! I'll stick to about half that much !

Don, I got good results with Swiss, but I was shooting it in a rolling block. Used a blow tube between shots. I will certainly take your advice. Thanks
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3551[1].JPG
    IMG_3551[1].JPG
    156.8 KB · Views: 12
  • IMG_3550[1].JPG
    IMG_3550[1].JPG
    165.6 KB · Views: 11
Olde Eysnford leaves a bunch easier fouling to deal with than Swiss. I have paper patch loads that can clean the rams using nothing more than a blow tube using OE.
 
I wish I could tell you Bullseye, but I don't have an original to compare it to. To be honest, it looks shockingly weak and frail compared to just about anything. The entire force of the back thrust, for lack of a better word, is borne by one small pin connecting the toggles, which are lined up in what is basically a straight line. I was surprised to see the toggles are two pieces each, right and left. As you can see in the pic, the center pin has a big job to do!

There was a Guns and Ammo write up that said these guns could take 29,000 PSI. I'm not buying that !! I'll stick to about half that much !

Don, I got good results with Swiss, but I was shooting it in a rolling block. Used a blow tube between shots. I will certainly take your advice. Thanks

The links meet a little better than 1/2 way which transfers quite a bit of the force to the frame. there is still force but not 100%. The end pins are there just to keep things in place the end of the links are against the bolt and frame, but this action is maxed out in the '76.
 
There was a Guns and Ammo write up that said these guns could take 29,000 PSI. I'm not buying that !! I'll stick to about half that much !

They may be able to take it but I would imagine accelerated wear and ovaling of pin holes may occur with full loads.
Maybe the steel is better than in the original guns too. I don't know, but I also don't see much reason to be pounding our nice rifles with max loaded cartridges.

Well ... I just went and looked at Uberti's page
http://www.uberti.com/1876-centennial-rifle
Apparently these new ones are "stronger materials and more precise matching to exacting tolerances and specifications. Today’s model is more accurate and stronger for use with modern smokeless and black powder ammunition."
 
Once I get going with Black Powder loads I won't have to worry about pressure. Venturino once told me that smokeless powder is a passing fad. Reckon he's right.
 
winchester didn,t think they were that weak, google up winchester,s tests on the original 1876, it may surprize you what they did in their tests. eastbank.
 
Original Winchester test results at factory on weakened toggle-link .45-75 Model 1876 tests have been cited many times. For those who haven't seen them here is an extract from Oliver Winchesters letter to Hallock.

"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

Now I love the toggle link design. It is stronger than most of us give it credit for and it is capable of hefty abuse with black powder and equivalent substitutes. It is not designed for extended firing with substantive fast burning smokeless loads that consistently exceed 29,000CUP (even with modern metallurgy and quality control evident in Uberti and other reproduction mfgs). John Moses Browning (GRHS) fixed that in the Model 1886 with the vertical lock system. That redesign was pursued by Winchester because smokeless was coming and he and other major mfgs knew it. I work at APG, MD so I took the opportunity and asked a ballistics test engineer buddy of mine at the Army Research Lab about the toggle link design in Winchesters and even that later used in the Maxim machine gun. He told me that the toggle when closed just beyond top dead center creates a very strong lock. He said, "Dave, be real here. There are very few abuses at BP pressures of properly loaded cartridges that would ever wear that action down." He then explained that if Winchester had attempted the tests using say, turn of the century Varget, he never would have gotten close to the end stage of the test where multiple bullets were seated on one another. "The pressures generated with even the most forgiving smokeless powder would have caused deformation of the breech and catastrophic failure of the barrel just forward of the chamber." When he said that I got an image of a beautiful 1876 splayed out like a giant banana peel. He finished by saying, "If you want to shoot smokeless on an 1876 go ahead, but use Varget or IMR 4895 and work up loads slowly and never exceed 29000CUP." He offered to drill a hole in the barrel of my .44-40 Henry and insert pressure sensors, recreating Winchesters test using current gun proofing test protocols, if I didnt believe him, " so long as ya don't mind me junking your rifle", but I passed on his offer.
 
Wow. David, that is a VERY interesting article, thank you for posting it. That toggle action is obviously not all that weak at all. I want badly to do a range session with the gun and post the results, but the weather here has been miserable with no end in sight. I just can't enjoy myself, or give the rifle a fair test, with temps in the twenties and a stiff crosswind. I have some Buffalo Arms 300 grain Black Powder rounds on the way, with reloading equipment soon to follow. I want to assemble my OWN loads using BP. Its nice to know that the action is stronger than it is generally given credit for, but I will stick to BP loads, I'm not a hunter so I have little use for the hotter loads anyway. I take great delight in showing just how accurate and powerful an old cartridge can be using the propellant it originally used.
 
you don,t need magnum loads to kill animals and i have found a 300gr lead bullet at 1200-1300 fps will go damn near thru a decent sized white tail lenth wise. i don,t use black powder in my old winchesters due to the take down to make sure its free of the corrosive residue from black powder. eastbank.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top