Uberti '58 sight picture

[DaveP (UK)]

At my club the normal course of fire for this gun is an 8" aiming mark at a range of 25 metres. The recommended technique is to aim a hairsbreadth below the mark and adjust the sights so as to hit the centre - in other words the POI is deliberately about 4 to 5 inches above the point of aim. The reason is to avoid losing the sights against the black aiming mark.
You're quite at liberty to think this a strange way to go about it, but if you want to compete at all, that's the way it is hereabouts!

The way the gun is set up affects the sight picture because the front sight is cut down quite a lot. What I see through the v shaped notch on the top strap is the inverted v shape near to the base of the factory front sight with a little white triangle on each side. I think my eyes are having problems with this and I would like to try to change things so that I get the more familiar black line through a parallel sided notch.
Modifying a front sight is no big deal, but filing out the rear sight is a bit irreversible.
Has anyone else had a similar problem?
Or do you have an opinion about my proposed solution?

 

[Old Fuff]

The recommended technique is to aim a hairsbreadth below the mark and adjust the sights so as to hit the centre - in other words the POI is deliberately about 4 to 5 inches above the point of aim. The reason is to avoid losing the sights against the black aiming mark. You're quite at liberty to think this a strange way to go about it, but if you want to compete at all, that's the way it is hereabouts!

Not strange at all. Over here on the other side of the Big Pond handguns of all kinds that are intended to be used for conventional target shooting are set up in exactly the same way, and for the same reason.

It is also common practice to use a needle file (or better yet a milling machine if one is available) to open the "V" notch to either a "U" shape or square notch.

 

[[email protected]]

A 6:00 sight picture on the pistol target is OK if you are good enough to use it.
I never have been. When I taught the wife how to aim, I taught her to put the
front sight in the "Black" and just let it float around while applying pressure to
the trigger. Taught the daughter same way. None of us are good enough to hold
at 6:00. Some guys can and that is good. When holding in the "Black" your eye
will automatically find the center. All you have to worry about is applying even
trigger pressure. Wife has won 9 National Championships using this method.
Daughter has won two National Championships and she is only 14. I have won it
once. I know, I'm the slacker. So it depends what kind of a guy you are. Can you
hold precise at 6:00? Or do your sights move around all over the place? Only
you can decide that. It's all any of us three can do to keep them in the "Black"
let alone the 10 ring or X ring. If you can keep them in the "Black" at 25 yds.
the 10's and X's will take care of themselves. That's my story and I'm sticking
to it.
Phil

 

[DaveP (UK)]

Old Fuff - Thanks for the info. Apologies for going into such lengthy detail - I had formed the impression that on your side of the pond C&B revolvers were used much more informally, so I thought I should explain why I was getting into difficulties.
I know a man with a milling machine...

Phil - I agree with you. However on the target face I am supposed to use the aiming mark is about twice the size of yours. The 7 and 6 rings are both black. This brings its own problems. I find it harder to hold on the centre of the larger area. I have no idea why we are saddled with such an unhelpful target face, but if you want to play with the other boys, that's what you have to use. Using a 6 o'clock aim I'm making progress when using my Pedersoli LePage which has a better sight picture and a set trigger. I'd just like to be making progress with my revolver too!

I have no doubt that a smaller aiming mark would give me a tighter group - something I might test for myself when the weather and light are better.

 

[Old Fuff]

Bit of a misunderstanding here...

I don't know anyone that can hold precisely at 6:00, or any other particular spot you chose.

The purpose of holding under the black circle is so that you can better see the sight picture against a white background. Your eye should be focused on the front sight, the rear sight should be clear, and the black circle should look fuzzy.

You will see an optical illusion of the sights being still, while the black circle is bouncing around. So long as the sight picture is correct, hold as close to the 6:00 position as you can, with the understanding you are trying to hold within an area, not a precise spot.

Clear as mud?

 

[AJumbo]

I am sorely tempted to invest in a good warding file and turn that V into a nice, square trough.

Apart from that, my sight picture very much resembles yours, Dave.

 

[Old Fuff]

I had formed the impression that on your side of the pond C&B revolvers were used much more informally,

That's true in many places, but there is some formal competition, particularly within our National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA) Who have an extensive facility at Friendship, Indiana.

If you follow our black powder sub-forum you will often find threads concerning ways to tune or otherwise improve cap & ball revolvers.

 

[[email protected]]

DaveP, I'm not buying what your sayings about the large bull. No matter what
the size of the "Black" bull, your eye will find the center. To prove this to
yourself just post your target backwards so you cannot see the black. All you
will see is the blank piece of paper. Now hold in the center and shoot. What
you will usually find is that your shots will have a better group and probably all
be in the center. Why do you think at Friendship and all the clubs I shoot at
you must post your target so as the black is facing you. I would love to shoot
at my target backwards. But it's not allowed. There probably are several
different ways to aim a handgun. I find it's a lot harder to try and teach someone who has been shooting for several years than teach a child. The child has no bad habits to break. I taught my daughter when she was 10. I find it best to just let people shoot anyway they want to. Let the target do
the talking. We have had many a family discussion on shooting. People do
things different ways. We just don't happen to do like most others do. Fluff,
your way of aming is probably best for you. We just don't happen to do it that way.

 

[BowerR64]

I just use the 6:00 because of the contrast.

I level the tops of the rear sight with the top of the front and put the dark bull just above the front post with the rear level.

If i try and shoot like C the front post starts to blur with the bull and i cant tell where my POA is. If i put the sights just below the dark bull the white contrast of the rest of the target helps me see the darker sights better.

This how i try and get my sight picture (sept for C) i dont use C i would shot high if i did.

 

[J-Bar]

[email protected] knows what he talking about, and I would never contradict his advice for bullseye shooting.

Without doing so, I would say that if you are uncomfortable with your sight picture for whatever reason, make the change. Go slow and file the rear sight notch yourself, or have it precision milled out if you have that option available. If you don't like it, you can have it welded up and recut. And Uberti 1858s are not quite the investment of, say, a Purdey shotgun. Then when you have the sights configured to your comfort, apply the shooting technique described by [email protected]

That should give you the best of both worlds! Good luck and let us know how it goes.

I have filed the rear notch on several of my fixed sight cowboy action shooting revolvers. It helped me, and I really don't care what their future owners might think. They are mine and life is short.

 

[[email protected]]

To each their own. That's why there's Fords & Chevys and winners & losers. I have been very fournate to have known some of the best shooters in the world
and have been told by them on the fine points of pistol shooting. My mentor was
the late William Carver & Peter Allen. Good luck to all.

 

[Palehorseman]

I just use the 6:00 because of the contrast.

I level the tops of the rear sight with the top of the front and put the dark bull just above the front post with the rear level.

If i try and shoot like C the front post starts to blur with the bull and i cant tell where my POA is. If i put the sights just below the dark bull the white contrast of the rest of the target helps me see the darker sights better.

This how i try and get my sight picture (sept for C) i dont use C i would shot high if i did.

Ditto on that here.

 

[rodwha]

I have had no formal schooling and have always done it as shown in C. I'm by far not a great shot, but I do fairly well for what I'm doing I suppose.

 

[Old Fuff]

To prove this to yourself just post your target backwards so you cannot see the black. All you will see is the blank piece of paper. Now hold in the center and shoot. What you will usually find is that your shots will have a better group and probably all be in the center.

Actually this technique is often used by trainers and instructors, especially in the U.S. military services. Because they're is no specific aiming point the student/shooter pays more attention to the sight picture and doesn't yank the trigger in a desperate attempt to get the shot fired before the sights move away from the chosen aiming point.

Which brings us back to the point: the sight picture (relationship of the front and rear sight to each other) is more important then the exact alignment of the sights to the aiming point; and the idea is to press the trigger so that this doesn't change. The advantage of the 6:00 hold (if there is one) it that the sight picture can be clearly seen. When you have a blank (all white) target there is no black aiming point to obscure the sights.

As an experiment, put up a target that is 100% black and see what happenens.

 

[[email protected]]

I rest my case, you all can shoot anyway you want to. I had forgot that
everybody is a expert, you all don't need any advice from me.:banghead:

 

[rodwha]

I am no expert. I barely shoot acceptable groups claimed for home defense.

And I see how the 6:00 hold allow you to see the front sight much better. That makes sense, though I had always "known" (dunno who taught me, if anyone did) that the bullet holes should hit just above the POA (the base of the hole touches the top of the sight).

Using a 6:00 hold I may not need to replace my ROA front sight to the 45 Colt sight Ruger sent me! Something new to try!!!

 

[DaveP (UK)]

Well I'm certainly grateful to have been reminded of a number of points that I had started to forget. I do have some age related vision problems. I shoot noticeably better on a bright day than on a dull day, and it's nothing to do with shivering!
I do accept that the brain can do things like locating the centre of a circle. I expect that some will be better at this than others. Certainly I don't expect to achieve much, personally, by placing black sights in front of a black mark. For me, 6 o'clock aim seems to be better suited. Referring to Bowyer64's pictures, I generally try for B. I find it relatively easy to monitor a narrow strip of white, so elevation is effectively controlled by sight set up, and that just leaves the sideways stuff to confuse the old brainbox.
So, my way forwards?
I'll certainly shoot a few targets "in the back" Haven't done that for quite a while, so it should be interesting.
I'll make myself some target faces with standard size scoring rings and smaller aiming marks. I don't suppose it will prove anything, but I might learn something about myself.
And I will modify my sight picture. I think J-Bar said it for me "I've done it...and it helped"
It is my gun. It's not a particularly expensive one either. I just needed to try to avoid one of those moments when you do something hard to undo - and realise you haven't thought it through...

 

[BowerR64]

Im sure my eye sight isnt any better then yours and that may be why we use the sight picture we do.

Even if everything is blury a 6:00 hold still puts everything some what seperate then holding the front sight right on the bull wich if your vision is some what blury will IMO blend in with the bull. Thats what i find happens to me thats why i TRY for a 6:00 hold.

 

[rodwha]

So I'm curious how a 6:00 hold translates to something such as handgun hunting where there are no bulls and the range is unknown to a degree?

 

[[email protected]]

Wonder if Wild Bill, or Waytt , or Doc used a 6:00 hold

 

[Old Fuff]

Given the style and size of the sights found on their revolvers, I suspect that in anything but a friendly shooting match they pointed rather then aimed. When shooting at informal targets it's likely they used " Kentucky windage" based on experience to hit what they were shooting at.

Today it is generally recommended that combat and general purpose or hunting handguns be sighted to point-of-aim/point of impact. But DaveP (UK) seems to be more interested in bullseye target shooting.

The argument over 6:00 hold vs. center hold is mostly moot, because very few marksmen can hold exactly on either point. Instead one should hold on the smallest possible area, while pressing the trigger in a way that won't disturb the sight picture. Trying to make the gun go off when everything is perfect will lead to jerking the trigger and throwing hits all over the paper. In a perfect world the trigger's release will come as a surprise and result in a flinch-free shot.

 

[[email protected]]

You and I differ completely on shooting, but that's OK. If everybody aimed like
I do, I would have more competition. If any 6:00 hold shooters can show me better targets
Shot in competition than these, I will try it. Until then I will stick to my old ways.

 

[BowerR64]

So I'm curious how a 6:00 hold translates to something such as handgun hunting where there are no bulls and the range is unknown to a degree?

Thats just it, if i were to shoot at something moving why would i want to cover it up with the sight? Ide follow the target around just over my front sight.

I just want to see what im aiming at is why i chose the 6:00 hold.

If i use a scope i dont do it that way but with iron sights that just the way i seem to like to do it.

 

[DaveP (UK)]

I think a 6 o'clock hold could have a limited relevance to a hunting situation. If you want to blow up rats, or take headshots on rabbits, then fine. But if you started the day with such modest intentions and then encountered, say, a deer, would you be able to "reset your head" fast enough to respond and well enough to make a respectable attempt?
Only you will know the answer - I don't, and I don't hunt either, but if I had to go out and drop some meat I think I would prefer to work with sights adjusted to hit POA at a suitable distance and a working knowledge of allowances for range changes. It just seems like less to get my head around! And, of course, I'd probably be able to see my sights against mid tone fur...

When I use the term 6 o'clock "hold" it doesn't mean that I try to hold dead still. It just means that the area around which my sights drift while waiting for that unexpected trigger break is just below the aiming mark, where the sights themselves are easier to see.
Some of the best shots in the club use a technique called area aiming. They visualise an exact image of the aiming mark, situated directly underneath the real one,and "hold" over the imaginary x ring. Maybe, One day, If I'm spared...

 

[rodwha]

I'm not a target shooter, but I must say a 6:00 hold makes so much sense, which is part of why I asked about using it for hunting.

I've premeasured out my new pistol's powder and can't wait to try, but I'll have to try this with my Ruger since I'm familiar with it already.

You certainly can't argue with those targets!