Uberti Cattleman Hombre?

[Speedo66]

I was at a show today and saw a used Hombre model in .357. Asking price was $275.

The thing that caught my attention was the drag line on the cylinder. Rather than being a narrow light line like on a S&W revolver, this was a thick somewhat jagged line right down to shiny metal.

Is this normal? Also, the matt finish seemed more painted on than just unpolished. Does this finish hold up?

Lastly, was that a good price for this gun, and do they have a decent resale value?

Thanks

 

[1KPerDay]

Sounds like the prior owner didn't know what he was doing.

 

[Speedo66]

Well, I was at the show early, and I only live 15 minutes away, so I went home and spent some time in front of the computer doing some research.

I saw several videos, including our favorite laughing tester who loved it so much he did two on shooting the Uberti, and a wide spread belief seems to be that the Uberti Cattleman series is the best Colt SAA replica available. The Hombre has the same internals and feel, just a different finish. Some time on Armslist and Gunbroker found none near this one's price.

I had taken the seller's card, so I called, and he still had it. I asked him to hold it, and said I'd be there in 15 minutes. I looked it over very closely, and despite the cylinder ring, could find no evidence it had ever been fired. This was a gun store, not a private seller, and it came with the original box, lock, and every paper it came new with, including the warranty card and owner's manual. Aside from the ring, there wasn't a blemish anywhere else on the finish or nice wood grips. It may have just been shopworn.

He had originally priced it at $299, I had offered $250, and he came back at $275. When I went back, I asked if he could do any better, and he offered $269, which I took.

In one of the videos I watched, someone removed the matt finish, polished it and cold blued it, looked great. Maybe a future project. For right now, can't wait to get to the range, which I'll do tomorrow. Hey, Mon. Is geezer day, half priced down to $10 an hour, and I'll be there. I'd also picked up some ammo at the show, will report on how it shoots.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The difference between the Hombre and the rest of the Cattleman series is the matte finish and the brass trigger guard and backstrap. Colt never used a brass trigger guard or backstrap on the Single Action Army.

Most likely your Hombre shows a ring around the cylinder, unfired or not, because somebody was playing with it a lot, and they did not know how to operate a single action revolver. Just so you know, standard operational procedure with any single action revolver with a Colt type lockwork is to never lower the hammer from half cock. Lowering the hammer from half cock allows the bolt to rise against the cylinder while the cylinder is in mid position between chambers. Any subsequent motion of the cylinder causes the bolt to rub against the cylinder, causing a rub line. Always bring the hammer to full cock before lowering it. That way the bolt will be locked in a locking slot on the cylinder and the cylinder will not move. When unloading or loading the gun at half cock, always bring the hammer to full cock before lowering it again. The time honored loading sequence with one of these revolvers is to only load five rounds, not six. A revolver like this is not safe with a live round under the hammer. Put the hammer at half cock, load one, skip one, load four more, bring the hammer all the way back and then lower it. If you do it correctly the hammer will be down on an empty chamber. Practice this with snap caps until you can do it right.

Regarding the narrow turn line on a S&W double action revolver, that is completely different. The lockwork is completely different, and it is normal to close the cylinder with the bolt up. A thin turn line on a S&W or Colt double action revolver is normal.

 

[Speedo66]

Thanks for the tutorial on the lock work and loading, haven't had a single action (Ruger Single Six) since the mid 60's. Didn't realize there was a correct way to load it and lower the hammer.

I had wanted a .357, and also had wanted a single action; got both in one, and got in inexpensively which is always good.

 

[RealGun]

My Uberti El Patron Belleza shoots high, and I gather this is normal, so aim low. The front sight would have to be raised otherwise, and that is not a simple matter, I'm told. Mine is 45 Colt, and yours is 357 Mag, but how different could they be?

Note that your Single Six is a different action than SAA. With the Ruger of recent vintage, you just open the loading gate and spin all you want. You can also load every chamber, given Ruger's transfer bar under the hammer. The Uberti will be a new lesson to learn. Driftwood Johnson provided an excellent introductory tutorial.

 

[bannockburn]

Speedo66

Your Uberti Hombre kind of reminds me of the older Millenium model with the brass back strap/trigger guard and matte finish. Not sure if it's a matte blue or if it's some sort of painted on finish. Sounds like you did alright on the price. Photos please when you get a chance.

 

[J-Bar]

My Uberti El Patron Belleza shoots high, and I gather this is normal, so aim low. The front sight would have to be raised otherwise, and that is not a simple matter, I'm told. Mine is 45 Colt, and yours is 357 Mag, but how different could they be?

Note that your Single Six is a different action than SAA. With the Ruger of recent vintage, you just open the loading gate and spin all you want. You can also load every chamber, given Ruger's transfer bar under the hammer. The Uberti will be a new lesson to learn. Driftwood Johnson provided an excellent introductory tutorial.

As you probably already know, you can change the vertical point of impact by changing bullet weight. You can lower your .45s point of impact by using a lighter bullet (counterintuitive, but the lighter bullet spends less time in the barrel and is therefore less influenced by recoil/muzzle flip). The lightest commercial .45s I have heard about are 165 grain "flying ashtrays". If you are already using light bullets and light loads and the POI is too high, you would have to do some work on the sights for more correction.

 

[Speedo66]

There was an old model Cattleman, and a new model. The old model had a round pusher at the end of the ejection rod and a lower front sight. The newer model, which mine is, has a crescent shaped pusher and the front sight is higher, maybe to address the issues mentioned here. The new model also has a cylinder pin with two notches on it that can be pushed in further to prevent the hammer from fully falling, acting as a safety of sorts. Ignore the engraved model, the photo beneath it shows the details of the ejector rods and front sights.


Cylinder Engraving Detail
On Engraved Cattleman
Has scroll-engraved cylinder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

What you are referring to as an 'old model' is generally known as the Black Powder Frame model. This is the one on the right in your photo. Slightly out of focus, but you can see the bright blue angled screw in the frame that keeps the cylinder rod in place. This was the original configuration of the Single Action Army in 1873. The 'pusher' is known as the Extractor Rod Head. The round style is known as the Bulls-eye style head. Uberti makes the Cattleman in this configuration to simulate the early SAA. Although the original Black Powder model Colts should only be fired with Black Powder, the modern Uberti version is made with modern steel and is fine for shooting with modern Smokeless ammuntion.

The more common model has the crescent shaped extractor rod head, and the modern transverse, spring loaded cylinder pin latch. This style latch first appeared in 1892, IIRC, and became standard a few years later, along with the crescent extractor rod head.

The cylinder pin with two notches on it is one of the ways Uberti gets these revolvers imported into the US. Imported revolvers must have some sort of mechanism to prevent an accidental discharge if dropped, and the two notch cylinder pin is one type. It is not a very useful safety, it is not practical to pull the rod out if you suddenly need to fire the gun. In fact, many shooters grind away the rear of the pin to get rid of the 'safety feature'.

Colts, manufactured in the US, are not subject to the same requirements, so they have no 'safety devices' to prevent accidental discharge.

 

[Speedo66]

Thanks again for the interesting info. The cylinder pin would seem to be one of the least intrusive ways to include a safety. Beats the S&W side lock, and the Rossi 92 top safety as far as I'm concerned.

I guess a drawback would be if you didn't realize you'd pushed it back too far, then you're in for a big surprise if you need it right now. I've read it has given a few SASS competitors fits.

 

[Speedo66]

Just found a chart that lists Italian proof marks by year. The mark is a small square with numbers or letters inside.

Mine is marked CL, which would be 2016 if you project forward. This is reinforcing my thinking that this is a new shopworn revolver.
Here's the chart: (it fell apart when pasted here, sorry for the jumbled dates)


Italian Date Codes

1945 = 1

1967 = XXIII

1989 = AU

1946 = 2

1968 = XXIV

1990 = AZ

1947 = 3

1969 = XXV

1991 = BA

1948 = 4

1970 = XXVI

1992 = BB

1949 = 5

1971 = XX7

1993 = BC

1950 = 6

1972 = XX8

1994 = BD

1951 = 7

1973 = XX9

1995 = BF

1952 = 8

1974= XXX

1996 = BH

1953 = 9

1975 = AA

1997 = BI

1954 = X

1976 = AB

1998 = BL

1955 = XI

1977 = AC

1999 = BM

1956 = XII

1978 = AD

2000 = BN

1957 = XIII

1979 = AE

2001 = BP

1958 = XIV

1980 = AF

2002 = BS

1959 = XV

1981 = AH

2003 = BT

1960 = XVI

1982 = AI

2004 = BU

1961 - XVII

1983 = AL

2005 = BZ

1962 = XVIII

1984 = AM

2006 = CA

1963 = XIX

1985 = AN

2007 = CB

1964 = XX

1986 = AP

2008 = CC

1965 = XXI

1987 = AS

2009 = CD

1966 = XXII

1988 = AT

2010 = CF

Prior to 1945 date codes were in Roman numerals and included the month and the last two numbers of the year, so January 1922 would be rendered IXXII.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I guess a drawback would be if you didn't realize you'd pushed it back too far, then you're in for a big surprise if you need it right now. I've read it has given a few SASS competitors fits.

Before Uberti used the two position cylinder pin they used a device hidden in the hammer. It used to be called the D-Cam. Have not seen it for a long time. Yes, it can be a real pain if the two position pin is pushed back when you pull your first pistol in CAS. I only have one Uberti revolver at this point, I threw away the two position cylinder pin and replaced it with one from Belt Mountain.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Here is a link to more information about Italian proof marks.

http://www.powderhombre.com/mbpproofmarks.pdf

 

[CraigC]

My Uberti El Patron Belleza shoots high, and I gather this is normal, so aim low. The front sight would have to be raised otherwise, and that is not a simple matter, I'm told. Mine is 45 Colt, and yours is 357 Mag, but how different could they be?

Note that your Single Six is a different action than SAA. With the Ruger of recent vintage, you just open the loading gate and spin all you want. You can also load every chamber, given Ruger's transfer bar under the hammer. The Uberti will be a new lesson to learn. Driftwood Johnson provided an excellent introductory tutorial.

Not normal. These guns are typically provided with an overly tall front sight and should shoot low, before filing them down for proper zero.

He said he had a Single Six in the 1960's and that would make it an Old Model that operates just like a Colt SAA.

 

[the Black Spot]

I have the Stoeger millenium. Same gun. Mine is 45 colt. I like mine a lot.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

My Uberti El Patron Belleza shoots high, and I gather this is normal, so aim low. The front sight would have to be raised otherwise, and that is not a simple matter, I'm told. Mine is 45 Colt, and yours is 357 Mag, but how different could they be?

Howdy Again

Stating that a gun shoots high or low without including at what distance is meaningless. It might shoot to point of aim at one distance, and be high or low at another distance. Recoil is an important factor in high or low a gun shoots, particularly a handgun. The muzzle will start to flip up before the bullet leaves the barrel, so how high it flips before the bullet exits will depend on how heavy the recoil is. The same revolver will probably have a different point of impact when shooting 38 Special vs 357 Magnum. Same with 45 Colt. My full house Black Powder loads recoil more than a light 45 Cowboy load, and they will print higher than the lighter load.

The Single Action Army was designed with a tall front sight, they were originally regulated to print to the point of aim pretty far out. Sorry, I don't recall exactly how far. As Craig says, it is common practice with a SAA or replica to file down the front sight to raise the point of impact. Although this should not be done until one is certain of the load one wants to shoot. Much easier to remove metal than to add it.

I bought a S&W 38 a few weeks ago. I could see somebody had filed down the front sight a bit, but I did not think too much of it. However when I got it to the range I could not get it to print to point of aim at any distance. It shot really high at every distance from 5 yards to 25 yards. The front sight had simply been filed down too far. The rear sight was screwed down as far as it would go, so I could not get it to shoot any lower.

This old Colt of mine had some steel welded onto the front sight at some point. It looks more like it was done to fill out the profile of the sight, rather than make it taller.

 

[Speedo66]

Range report: Took the Hombre to the range today, brought a box of .357 and a box of .38Spl. Shot both very well, close to point of aim, but about 1" low and right at 7 yards, and that opened to about 1 1/2-2" at 50 feet. Grouped very nicely. Recoil was less than I'd expected with the .357, it's a hefty piece. .38's were actually quite tame. Also took my Rossi 92 in .357 and .357's felt very mild, .38's were nothing. One from Italy, the other from Brazil, but they make a nice couple. lol

Liked the way the Hombre shot, felt, and operated, have to say I'm very pleased with it. Holster has been purchased, and is on the way. Might need to start reloading for them. I'm used to $10 or less boxes of 9mm, the .357 are about double.

 

[bannockburn]

With the Rossi Model 92 and the Uberti Hombre you've got a great pistol/carbine combo going on there! Definitely a good reason to start reloading.

 

[RealGun]

Howdy Again

Stating that a gun shoots high or low without including at what distance is meaningless.

What is meaningless is the difference anywhere within 25 yards. I shoot paper.

 

[DPris]

DJ,
That Uberti D-cam was never a safety device.

It was created (you have to understand how the Italians operate & think) as a method of salvaging a large run of bad frames.

Rather than junk those frames, the company modified the hammer cams to allow their use.
Once used up, the D-cam disappeared.

I had one years ago, not a bad gun. It had the cam, but pre-dated the in-hammer safety.

The D-cam is one of several horror stories any importer bringing in Italian repros could tell you.
They don't think quite like we do.

Cimarron had a similar problem with their Schofields.
They bought the tooling for their Italian maker to build their version exclusively for them.
The guns initially tended to come unlocked during firing.
Cimarron conveyed their unhappiness with the maker, who said they'd alter the lockup.

Next batch of guns came in with the same exact problematic parts.
Cimarron calls the company, "Hey! What's up? Thought you were going to ship with the new parts?!"
Company says, "Yes, we will. As soon as we use up the old parts!"
Eventually the program became more trouble than it was worth & Cimarron dropped out, at a loss.

The D-cam was not the internal hammer safety system that Uberti developed, had nothing to do with that.


As for the sights, for decades Uberti used low sights that were regulated waaaay out there.
More recently they've switched to taller sights that typically shoot low now (and/or left, right, or anyplace in between), so the buyer can file the blade to his or her elevation preferences & load.

The drag line could be previous mishandling, or could be a timing issue.
Timing varies greatly from Uberti to Uberti to Uberti.
Denis

 

[CraigC]

Mine is 45 Colt, and yours is 357 Mag, but how different could they be?

There can be a drastic difference in POI between the .357 and standard pressure .45Colt. I have a Ruger Bisley .44x7½" that only shot to point of aim with full pressure 240's. My .44Spl handloads flew right over the target. Same concept.

 

[DPris]

Barrel length also makes a difference in elevation.
I was told by a specialty custom outfit dealing with Ubertis that Uberti uses the same front blade height for all barrel lengths, which affects POI relative to POA.
Denis

 

[RealGun]

Barrel length also makes a difference in elevation.
I was told by a specialty custom outfit dealing with Ubertis that Uberti uses the same front blade height for all barrel lengths, which affects POI relative to POA.
Denis

I would expect a 5 1/2" SAA clone to be regulated to a standard.

 

[DPris]

As I said- Uberti uses the same blade height on all barrel lengths, and you can NEVER expect a Uberti clone to be regulated to any standard.

You're lucky if you get one that's centered for windage.
Elevation is rarely right on.
Denis