(UK) 2 year sentence for ammo, parts!

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gunsmith

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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/t...objectid=18613986&siteid=66633-name_page.html

13 February 2007
DUM-DUM & DUMBER
By Paula Murray

A GUN NUT who kept more than 2000 dum-dum bullets at his home was jailed for two years yesterday.

Brian McIntosh, 47, also had a cache of parts for AK47 assault rifles, and three banned stun guns.

McIntosh told police he liked collecting "illegal things".

But he also said he didn't know it was against the law to keep dum-dums-hollow-pointed rounds which blow apart on impact causing horrific wounds.

McIntosh hoarded the rifle parts to build replica weapons. But police said the components could easily be used to build a working machine pistol and an AK47.

The Russian assault rifle - a favourite of Iraqi rebels and Taliban fighters - can fire up to 600 rounds per minute.

Police raided McIntosh's home in Whiterashes, Aberdeenshire, in 2004 after a tip-off from West Midlands detectives investigating gun-dealing networks.

Aswell as the weapons parts and bullets, they found deactivated weapons and tools for working on guns and ammunition.

Officers also discovered the stun guns. McIntosh said he bought them on eBay and kept them for protection.

Vinit Khurana, prosecuting, said: "Asked why he had possession of weapons he knew were illegal, he replied that he liked to collect things that are illegal."

McIntosh told police he bought the dum-dum bullets by mail order from America. But he insisted he didn't know that it was illegal to possess them.

David Moggach, defending at the High Court in Dunfermline, accepted that McIntosh had "a rather unusual hobby".

But he stressed that although his client had been collecting guns since the 1990s, he had never fired a weapon.

Mr Moggach said: "It was not his intention whatsoever to build a working firearm. There is nothing sinister here - no criminal or terrorist links."

McIntosh admitted six firearms offences but was cleared of possessing three partly deactivated assault rifles. He has a previous firearms conviction.

The oilman could have faced a minimum sentence of five years. But Lord McPhail said he didn't have to jail him for that long because there was no suggestion he wanted to build real guns or was involved in crime, and he had been completely open about his hobby.

The judge said he had reduced McIntosh's jail term from three years because of his guilty plea.

But he added that he was concerned that McIntosh failed to appreciate how serious his crimes had been.

A female relative of McIntosh weptashe was led away to start his sentence.
 
"The oilman could have faced a minimum sentence of five years. But Lord McPhail said he didn't have to jail him for that long because there was no suggestion he wanted to build real guns or was involved in crime, and he had been completely open about his hobby".

That is the real reason for the sorry state that England has become - "Lord".
 
A GUN NUT who kept more than 2000 dum-dum bullets at his home was jailed for two years yesterday.
They are paranoid,because it would mean another nutcase like Micheal Ryan and another Hungerford-style massacre.If he was a genuine license holder,he would have known about the 1988 bans and the 1997 bans and that we can't have these anymore.

This guy sounds to me like another loser or a sad type of individual,who might be slightly mad.You either like guns for target-shooting or hunting,in the UK or you don't.Collecting illegal things?honestly this guy should grow up and get a life,because he is endangering our sport and collection of guns,even further (especially in this year.)by his strange behaviour.

Lets hope that they dismiss him as another Barry George or David Tovey.I hate those strange billy-liars and billy-no mate types.
 
Really?

I have every sympathy for him. Nothing wrong with liking guns but not target shooting. He didn't mean to hurt anyone, or even endanger anyone, so why send him to jail?
 
By dum dum bullets, are they referring to hollow points or blanks of some kind?
 
Fosbery,You might be right about him and you probably are,but I don't like the idea of further bans being drafted this year,because of stupid or ignorant people,not reading up on our laws and obeying them.I like guns as much as you do,but I check the law and I stick to it and I argue the faults of both gun bans,to the antis,who don't really seem to listen,at all.

The lunatics are those that you least expect,those who are law-abiding and have proper and secure jobs.Thats how most cops see people who come out with the excuse of "I like to collect illegal weapons."He should have said,that he 'likes collecting militaria and associated stuff'.

If they are replica parts and not real ones,then this is totally pointless,that he should serve five years in jail.He ordered,hollow-points,without the right permits,so it is illegal to do so.Thats why I didn't order a CZ-75 and a CZ-85,from the USA.

If a person likes guns,then they should read the rules first,without ordering illegal stuff.I don't think that he should have gone to jail,for being ignorant though.:)
 
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A GUN NUT who kept more than 2000 dum-dum bullets at his home was jailed for two years yesterday.
This is how the anti's control the debate. The very first words are pejorative and place a value judgment upon the defendant.

Folks have got to write in and complain EVERY TIME they see this sort of thing, or every successive generation is more prejudiced than the one that preceded them.

The Russian assault rifle - a favourite of Iraqi rebels and Taliban fighters - can fire up to 600 rounds per minute.
Emotional eppeal - no direct relationship to story.

GAK! This kind of 'news' writing makes my head want to explode.....
 
Yes, I agree it harms our own hobbies. I think my advice to him would be "don't get caught." I think these laws are unjust, so I have no problem with others breaking them (though I do not myself) but I would like it if they did so in a manner which did not incur further restrictions and the like upon people like me who are too scared of jail to copy them :p
 
The trouble with headlines like "GUN NUT..." is that the damage is done the moment the papers hit the street, and it is irreperable. You can protest, start legal proceedings, force a public retraction etc, but Joe Public has had his buttons pressed once and for all.
FWIW I dont know that the epithet "Gun Nut" is entirely undeserved. Why play at home with guns that dont work when with a little application you could be out there "playing" with one that does - and enjoying the company of the like minded.
About the only thing that could generate good publicity for UK shooters would be a spate of headlines like "Man shoots rabid dog, saves 5 year old" and the implications of that are horrendous and NOT to be wished for!

The fundamental problem facing UK society is that we have a government that believes that all ills can be sorted by the right law. If people disobey the law... we just need another one :fire:
 
But he also said he didn't know it was against the law to keep dum-dums-hollow-pointed rounds which blow apart on impact causing horrific wounds.

:rolleyes: Y'all forgot this very emotionally-appealing sentence.

But he added that he was concerned that McIntosh failed to appreciate how serious his crimes had been.

My definition of "serious" is much more, well, serious.

A female relative of McIntosh weptashe was led away to start his sentence.

Can someone explain this sentence to me?
 
Well its obviously an allegorical reference to the sentencing side of UK jurisprudence, in particular to the way the rules change when part way through.
You know the sort of thing - sentenced to life so can reasonably expect to be out in seven years :D :D :D
 
NoPhilly
The thing is that the article doesnt really make it clear whether he had full rounds, ie live ammunition, or just some sort of expanding bullet heads.
If it were live ammo, well recent well publicised legislation awards the lucky unlicensed possessor 5 years. IIRC its a mandatory sentence upon conviction.
I actually expect that he just had expanding bullet heads. I'm not too clear on the chapter and verse of the regs but I know that I cannot buy expanding ammunition for any of the guns I legally possess. It is specifically prohibited for target shooting and is only available for hunting/vermin control. The user has to have specific permission on his ticket and the location has to be inspected and approved for the calibre.
I would draw your attention to the way he was found. Police investigating illicit gun dealers found some sort of link. In the circumstances it is only to be expected that they would take a very dim view of any naughties they turned up.
Apart from that I would agree with you - real Nasties get away with all sorts of villainy for smaller sentences than this (probably harmless) prat has let himself in for!
 
A female relative of McIntosh weptashe was led away to start his sentence.

weptashe = wept as he

@ MechAg

Yes, by Dum-Dum they mean hollow-points.
This name originates from spitzer-type ammunition with exposed lead tips, developed for the British Army at the Dum Dum arsenal in India many moons ago.
The term Dum-Dum has been misunderstood and generally abused, by media and even 'experts' around the world. Nobody can use it without losing some degree of credibililty, when discussing modern projectiles.
 
dum-dums-hollow-pointed rounds which blow apart on impact causing horrific wounds.

Blow Apart??? :what:


I hope I don't see any of those kinds of bullets for sale at the gun show tomorrow. If I see any, I'll have to tell the person selling them how dangerous those kinds of bullets are.
 
By dum dum bullets, are they referring to hollow points or blanks of some kind?

It's an archaic term used to refer specifically to primitive HP rounds made for the British. IIRC they were made in India at first. I have one of the .303 "dum dum" rounds. Just looks like a Silvertip. The Hague convention outlawed them for military use, but in more modern form they are of course standard rounds for police forces worldwide and required for hunters. The journalists are, as usual, complete idiots. Unfortunately so are most of the British publick. It reminds me of the "cop killer bullet" nonsense stateside.

I wonder what they'd do to me over there ;-) Several thousand rounds of ammunition, a factory for handloading more, material for IED's, detonating devices, subversive and anti-social literature. Not to mention fully functional handguns, rifles and lord knows what else. I'd be put away for decades and re-educated "Clockwork Orange" style.
 
Could be soft points or hollow points - the article doesn't make it clear (not surprisingly). Both are prohibited here now, even possession of the projectiles alone. Naturally a large number of waivers have had to be granted for pest destruction, which makes the blanket ban pretty pointless.
 
I gave up feeling sorry for the UK. They screwed themselves, and they and they alone carry the responsibility for getting themselves out of it.
 
I gave up feeling sorry for the UK. They screwed themselves, and they and they alone carry the responsibility for getting themselves out of it.

We may not wish to cast too many stones at our friends across the water.

With the way the political climate is going in this country, we may not be too far behind the UK in the direction of creeping socialism we are traveling. This pertains not only to gun rights, but other individual freedoms we take for granted, but which are constantly under attack.
 
@trbon8r

That is true, but what can I do about it if I'm not a citizen of the UK? Write letters to my MP?

I'll continue to work for (and care about) gun rights here, where I can make a difference.
 
With the way the political climate is going in this country, we may not be too far behind the UK.

As I like to say in these cases, it's most important for us in the States to recognize that what goes on in the UK is the UK's business, and none of ours.

There is no global community, other than the community of gangsters who "represent us" by finding new and inventive ways to curtail our fundamental rights. It's imperative that we keep different sets of gangsters from working together - otherwise there's no hope at all of enacting local change.

I think that includes, unfortunately, letting the UK do the UK's thing. I'll say it's wrong, but it's more wrong for us to presume that we have any say in the matter. If we did, then they'd have a reciprocal say in what we're doing, and then that will truly be the end of the 2nd.
 
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