(UK) 2 year sentence for ammo, parts!

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@ gezzer

Odd Job said:
Freedom has nothing to do with my question. What is tantamount to your statement, is that you have no laws in the US that you regard as unjust.

You say:
There sure are and as a free man I ignore them.

I don't think a man's freedom is recognised by how he ignores the law. I prefer to look at it from the perspective that he is free to do the things he wants to, not that he regards himself as free because he does what he wants to, regardless of the law. There is a subtle difference. Your kind of freedom can still land you in jail if you are caught.
And that's the rub.

You are not immune from having your guns taken away from you. You have certain states that are not gun-friendly. Yet it was not always this way. How did it happen? Can those citizens just ignore the laws, because they declare themselves 'free men?'

I don't think freedom in the context you are using it, has anything to do with how certain peoples lost their firearms, how certain peoples stand to lose their firearms, and how certain peoples both here and in your country cannot have certain firearms. I put it to you that it comes down to the laws, and that such laws must have a certain amount of support from the citizens themselves, or they would not be passed.
How else do you explain it?
 
@ glockamolee

If you recall your early WW2 History, you will note that your government asked "American Sportsmen" to send arms over to help the Home Guard resist the Nazis if they invaded (this was the result of not having enough/proper type weapons due to a 1920's or 30's gun law). Well, those weapons were never returned to the Americans who sent them. The "Crown" saw fit to destroy them post WW2.

Well I understand your bitterness, because that shouldn't have happened. Nobody here likes to see serviceable firearms destroyed.

Some of your Police Officers/Constables came to my country to learn to shoot. They were enjoying dinner at the table next to me with their American Law Enforcement hosts. During this meal they had the gall to say that we should have their (Englands) gun laws. The party soon left after I calmly, but firmly disagreed. Thats the arrogant mindset that rules your country and you as subjects.

No, it is not arrogance it is ignorance on the part of that man. He clearly believes in the less guns = less gun crimes story. He is wrong. He probably made those comments from his standpoint as a UK LEO. He probably thought it was okay for LEOs to have guns but not the man in the street. That attitude has nothing to do with whether we are 'subjects' or not. It is the prevailing opinion of the majority of the UK citizens today. That right there is the problem.
There is a petition on a UK government website, asking for firearms restrictions to be eased so that Olympic shooters can practice with pistols prior to the Olympics that will be held in London in 2012. Do you know how many people have signed that? Only 7100. In the same list of petitions, there are more than 6400 votes supporting a total ban on swords!
That's what the mindset of the majority of citizens is, here in the UK. It isn't what the Crown enforces, it is what the citizen deems acceptable. These fellow citizens are more of a threat to gun ownership than the government.

Now I asked gezzer above, and I have asked others before: in the US you have certain states that are not gun-friendly. Yet this was not always the case. What happened? Did it only take a small group of people to make that change, or do you think there was support from a significant number of citizens? Surely in a free country, with no 'subjects,' restrictive laws like that could easily be overturned?
My point here is that you guys in the US shouldn't be too complacent and put it down to UK citizens being 'subjects' or somehow diminished in their freedoms by the Crown, as a reason why the UK members lost their guns. You can lose yours too. After all, you don't all have the same rights, evidently. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be seeing so many comments from one US member to another, telling him to get out of California or (insert state here).
 
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Now I asked gezzer above, and I have asked others before: in the US you have certain states that are not gun-friendly. Yet this was not always the case. What happened? Did it only take a small group of people to make that change, or do you think there was support from a significant number of citizens? Surely in a free country, with no 'subjects,' restrictive laws like that could easily be overturned?
My point here is that you guys in the US shouldn't be too complacent and put it down to UK citizens being 'subjects' or somehow diminished in their freedoms by the Crown, as a reason why the UK members lost their guns. You can lose yours too. After all, you don't all have the same rights, evidently. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be seeing so many comments from one US member to another, telling him to get out of California or (insert state here).

Sir, I must agree with you. I recently moved from California to Maryland, not because the gun laws were better (barely), but because the cost of living was significantly better.

As a native Californian, I saw the state of California change rapidly over the last 20 years. California for years has been a repository for those Americans disenchanted with the traditional conservative social structure. After so many years of influx of the cast offs of society, the balance of power shifted hopelessly to the left. This led to a futile situation where many of the natives were left wondering what had happened to their state.

What I am trying to say is that I understand the point you are making regarding having tyranical laws forced down your throat by your very own neighbors. The liberal mindset in America is something that I don't pretend to understand. I think to understand it one must put aside common sense, accountability, self-reliance, and reason. This pattern of thinking in my opinion even retards basic survival instincts. What else could explain someone having no desire to even obtain the most basic means to defend oneself, but instead to rely solely on government for protection?

At some point tyranny will transform itself into rebellion by those that refuse to be persecuted. We are not yet at that point in the United States, or the UK. However, I fear that we are simultaneously going down that path where it will become a reality in this century. Should a free America and free UK fall into chaos, the world will be a dark place for years to come.
 
I thought I would die too says Pc

I have never been able to recall more than two shots, says Pc Neil Roper
A policeman who survived when a colleague was murdered says he thought he was going to die too.
Pc Neil Roper, 45, was shot in the back and shoulder by David Bieber while his colleague Pc Ian Broadhurst pleaded for mercy in Leeds on Boxing Day last year.

He speaks of his ordeal to Real Story's Fiona Bruce for the first time in a documentary to be screened on BBC One on Wednesday.

Pc Roper says he has questioned his own actions ever since. Bieber, 38, was jailed for life last week.

Pleading to live

Pcs Broadhurst and Roper had stopped Bieber in a stolen BMW car and were attempting to arrest him in the back of a police patrol car when he began shooting.

A third officer, Pc James Banks, 27, escaped by a "miracle" as a bullet hit his radio.

Remembering the details, Pc Roper said: "That's my mate there pleading for his life and I ask myself, could I have knocked the gun out of his hand? No. You ask yourself this question and you think no. Could I have done this? No.

"You know you ask yourself a lot of questions but at the end of the day the outcome is still the same.

"We all need a friend to confide in and for me Ian was that friend.

He did not deserve to die like that, nobody deserves to die like that

Pc Neil Roper

"He did not deserve to die like that, nobody deserves to die like that."

Recalling the shooting, he said: "I have never been able to recall more than two shots."

"That's all I ever heard, though I know there were five shots now. I spun round and I heard the shot and felt the sharp pain in my stomach. It was agony. I knew I had been shot.

'Officer down'

"Panic, fear, adrenalin meant I just kept going forward.

"Then I got on the radio and gave a description of the gunman and asked them to help Ian.

"Then I heard on the radio 'officer down'. I presumed it was Ian or James Banks.

"When I got into the ambulance I saw the yellow jacket by our car and I knew it was Ian because James wasn't wearing one. I knew it was Ian who was shot, but did not know then it was as bad as it was."

Father of two Pc Roper breaks down during the interview, recalling how he thought he had also been fatally injured.

"I thought I was going to die and it was just a case of making sure my kids are all right," he said.

Wracked with guilt, the traffic officer of 19 years even entertains the thought that it ought to have been him that was shot dead.

"Sometimes I wish it had been me."

Real Story: BBC One, Wednesday, 8 December 2004, 2100 GMT and streamed on the Real Story website.


This is one reason,for more controls on ammo parts,in the UK.Notice how unrelated it was,to the shooting community,in terms of crime.
 
Police murderer jailed for life

David Bieber had denied murdering the traffic Pc
A former US marine has been jailed for life for the murder of Pc Ian Broadhurst, who was shot in Leeds on Boxing Day 2003.
David Bieber, 38, was also convicted of the attempted murders of Pcs Neil Roper and James Banks.

Newcastle Crown Court heard how Bieber shot Pc Broadhurst in the head at point blank range despite the 34-year-old pleading for his life.

Bieber, of Springwood Road, Leeds, was ordered to spend his life in jail.

The bodybuilder was given concurrent life sentences with a minimum of eight years for the attempted murders of Pcs Roper and Banks.

'Cool and detached'

Bieber had fled to the UK after he was wanted in the US for conspiracy to commit murder. He started a new life using the alias Nathan Coleman.

Jailing him, trial Judge Mr Justice Moses told Bieber he had shown "no remorse or understanding of the brutality" of his crime. PC IAN BROADHURST



Valued officer paid with his life
Police car camera

The judge said Bieber had continued to maintain a cool and detached approach when attempting to explain the evidence against him.

The judge said Pc Broadhurst and Pc Roper had treated Bieber with "conspicuous fairness and consideration".

He added: "You repaid their courtesy by killing Pc Broadhurst and attempting to murder Pc Roper."

He told the court the aggravating feature in the case was that Bieber did not need to shoot Pc Broadhurst through the head.

He added: "You had already disabled him and he was defenceless.

"You could have escaped then but you chose to wait and fire a second shot at point-blank range.

To shoot and kill an officer in such circumstances, doing no more than trying to serve us all, is an attack on all of us

Mr Justice Moses


Popular athlete turned murderer


"It must be acknowledged that he might have died as a result of your first shot, but you made certain of his death."

The judge said that action meant Bieber could not be released early from jail and must spend his life in prison.

He has become one of only 25 people to be given "whole" life sentences in England and Wales. Others have included Harold Shipman, Myra Hindley and Jeremy Bamber.

Justice Moses said: "To shoot and kill an officer in such circumstances, doing no more than trying to serve us all, is an attack on all of us, and whilst it is a tragedy for family, friends and colleagues which we cannot share, it is a loss to us all."

Unanimous verdicts

The jury of six men and six women delivered unanimous verdicts on all of the charges.

They did not know Bieber was a drug dealer who had fled to the UK from Florida where he was wanted by police over a plot to hire a gunman to kill a love rival.

Bieber was also suspected of hiring the same gunman to murder his former girlfriend, but the attempt on her life failed.

Security had been tight throughout the trial with a police helicopter circling the court each day and roads closed when he was brought to the court.

Armed officers were also on duty around the court.

Recording equipment

An audio recording of the shooting incident was played to the jury during the 11-day trial.

Pc Ian Broadhurst was heard to plead for his life before being "calmly" shot in the head.


A bullet fired at Pc Banks hit his police radio
He and his colleagues had been checking a car, a black BMW, which they suspected had been stolen.

Voice recording equipment in their patrol car was switched on and the court heard conversations between the officers and Bieber.

Pc Roper was heard to get out of the patrol car and open the rear door to handcuff the man in the back.

At that stage the officer shouted "He's got a gun" and that was followed by four shots and screams.

Then the words, "No don't, don't. Please, please no", followed by a fifth and final shot.

Pc Broadhurst was initially shot in the chest.


The second and third shots were fired at Pc Roper hitting him in the shoulder.

A fourth shot was aimed at Pc James Banks, who was saved when it hit his radio.

The fifth and final shot was fired inches away from Pc Broadhurst's head as he lay pleading on the ground.

Bieber had claimed a friend of his, a fellow US national from Florida, was the gunman.

But the former marine, who had trained with handguns and assault rifles for a year before being discharged, refused to name the man in court.

_39682359_coleman_nathan_203.jpg

David Bieber had denied murdering the traffic Pc
_40589585_bieberradio.jpg
A bullet fired at Pc Banks hit his police radio

To shoot and kill an officer in such circumstances, doing no more than trying to serve us all, is an attack on all of us

Mr Justice Moses

_40589595_police_grab203.jpg
_40589665_biebergun.jpg

Because of Beibers actions,Mrs Broadhurst contacted the GCN,the government and West Yorkshire Police force and made a stink about firearm components and ownership of firearms.This could be viewed as one cause of the newly drafted violent crime bill and why they are are just too eager to go after guns,wherever they might be.That man certainly helped start this VCR bill and I am certain of it,along with the Yardie wannabes.A psycho and morons, how irritating can you get?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/media/video/otdvideo/87/08/19/3945_19-08-87?size=4x3&bgc=6699CC&nbram=1&nbram=1&bbram=1&news=1

Oh and of course,the grandaddy of gun control in the UK,a short BBC newsflash of Hungerford.This coupled with the other incidents,is 20 years of hellish restrictions in the UK.I meant to of added this to earlier posts,but forgot about this newsclip.This could be one reason,why people in the UK are afraid of guns.
 
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My Apologies

For not sharing my thoughts in a Gentlemanly manner. I stand by my facts; in the future, I will be a gentleman in my presentation; the challenge is to be a gentleman while presenting "hard" opinions and facts.

I agree that it is a societal attitude that promotes this stuff; according to Plato: "People get the government they deserve." These issues of freedom (characterised by firearm policy) certainly would apply.

I've been in states like New Jersey with a police state mentality; no offense to New Jersians, other states are the same way. Other states, such as Wyoming where I own vacation property, and Montana, socially (not just legislatively) allow open carry (yes, I have in front of law enforcement in those states; no problem). Here in Michigan, open carry was legislatively allowed, but socially, in the cities, the police would certainly stop you from carrying and detain you on nuisance laws.

As I mourn for all victims of violent crime in this country; especially High School kids, I also mourn for the families in England of the Marine who desecrated his Marine Corps Heritage.

I pledge to improve on my presentation of facts and opinion.
 
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