Unburned powder in case and barrel, inconsistent burn?

[Shoot&Ski]

I am new to reloading, and recently finished making up my first batch of handloads for my Ruger GP100. I loaded some .38 special with Rainier Leadsafe 125 grains and 4.0 grains of HP-38 with an OAL of 1.502. My recipe book specifies a minimum OAL of 1.445 and a starting load of 3.8 grains for HP-38. The never exceed load is 4.8 grains, so at 4.0 grains and this overall length I figured I would be erring on the plenty safe side seeing as how I am shooting these in a .357 Magnum.
Here comes the issue. I shot my first box of 50, and a few loads sounded and felt very weak, and I even got one squib load after triple checking all of the cases for powder and double checking the powder weights. I noticed if I tipped the gun back and shifted the powder to the back of the case, the recoil and sound seemed strong and "normal". Along with this, I am getting a bunch of powder flakes in the barrel, left in the case, and blown out between cylinder and cone. My question is, is this load so light that I am getting inconsistent burn from lack of powder? Or is the problem due to the fact that I am hardly crimping the cases at all?

 

[ljnowell]

Needs more powder. Or its contaminated. Or there wasnt as much powder as you thought in there. Whatcha weighin' them with?

 

[Funshooter45]

Yep, the load is probably too light. It seems contrary that when you have unburned powder that the answer is to use MORE powder, but it's true. The pressure and temperature don't get high enough to burn efficiently. You get unburned powder and sooty cases. And it gets worse if the outdoor temperature is cold. I had a few .45 Colt loads that worked just fine last summer, but this winter, they have unburned powder and black sooty cases.

Try putting 4.4 or 4.5 gr of powder in the cases and see if that moves you in the right direction.

 

[junkyarddog]

I just started developing 38 Special loads for a 586 6". I used Berry's 125 grain JHP with HP38 at 1.47 OAL. I applied a light crimp with an FCD. 4 grains seemed light so i only made about 6 just to see what it's like and can't tell how dirty it was. I made 12-18 rounds in each charge weight in .1 grain increments up 4.6 grains. In this limited run, 4.3 or 4.4 seems to give the best groups.

 

[918v]

Try this:

Seat the bullets deeper and crimp past the ogjive. This will increase bullet pull significantly and will improve combustion. Also, tip the gun back before every shot. A powder charge lying against the base of the bullet will cut the velocity by 200 FPS vs a powder charge lying against the flash-hole.

 

[USSR]

A light charge weight with a ball powder is never a good idea. Flake powders are much better suited for this application.

Don

 

[918v]

Why not? Light charges of flake powders result in incomplete combustion as well depending on burn rate.

 

[USSR]

Light charges of most flake powders use up more case space, making for better ignition.

Don

 

[918v]

Not enough to matter in this application.

 

[Shoot&Ski]

I am using two scales. A Lee Safety Scale and a Frankford Arsenal digital scale. I made sure that the weights agreed with both scales. The powder is new and right out of the bottle so it shouldn't be contaminated. Still seems odd that this is happening because it is listed as the starting load.

 

[Funshooter45]

Not odd at all. Yes it's a starting load, which means the pressures are not excessive. Nothing dangerous, it's just that it's very common for starting loads to burn real dirty. But at least you know that the pressure is safe for your gun and bullet. Start there, which you did and gradually work up until it's burning clean and you like the results. Beware though, with pistol loads, just moving up a couple tenths of a grain of powder can change in a hurry sometimes. Move slowly when increasing the powder weight.

 

[rfwobbly]

I am using two scales. A Lee Safety Scale and a Frankford Arsenal digital scale. I made sure that the weights agreed with both scales. The powder is new and right out of the bottle so it shouldn't be contaminated. Still seems odd that this is happening because it is listed as the starting load.

Mr Ski -

You are simply expecting too much from the load manual.

The load manual is concerned 99.999% with your safety, and that means keeping chamber pressures to less than SAAMI max. The ballistics lab that published the data is absolutely NOT concerned with cleanliness of the burned powder, bullet accuracy, felt recoil, barrel leading, amount of smoke or flame, how the bullet will behave, etc, etc. In other words, if the gun did not blow up, then they have done their job. Capiche ?

Suitability of the load is up to the reloader to find. In other words, that is YOUR job. Every load is going to behave differently in different guns, and maybe even in the same gun on different days. This is why a "load range" is given. Finding the most suitable load from within that range is up to you.

To do that you'll load 6-10 rounds each in small steps beginning at the "starting load" and working up. These are called "incremental loads" and you can search for more info on that here. You'll shoot these load groups starting with the lowest first and working your way up through the load range to discover your best load.

Your load choice is like me deciding to take up long distance running, and with no practice or conditioning signing up to run a 10 mile race... and expecting to win. Sorry to say this, but it simply doesn't happen that way. As novice runner there are certain health benefits that will come my way very quickly, but winning a race will require more time and effort than simply buying some flashy shoes. Likewise you are already enjoying the lower cost of ammo, but "the perfect load" requires more work.

All the best.

 

[cheygriz]

^^^^^^^

What Wobbly said!

The manual is SAFE a starting point.

 

[Shoot&Ski]

Obviously I am new at this, so thank you all for the advice. I understand that I need to find the load best for me, I just didn't know that variation could be so big within the range given in the recipe books. I am just glad that what I found is not unheard of. I will keep working my way up and I will see what happens.

 

[gamestalker]

I use Longshot for those 125s in my 38s. Even if your not wanting +Ps the Longshot will give you a much better burn and velocities in the mid 1000 fps to near 1200 fps with the data spread. Be careful with those light charges of fast powders, it is easy to get hurt! It seem like a lot hand loaders these days shy away from the slower burning powders, probably to save a few pennies? If you load the greater density charges of the slower stuff you'll never have problems such as this, not to mention it removes the risk of a double charge.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why are you seating the bullets out so far? You will be surprised at how much pressure changes with small changes in case capacity.

Hodgdon lists a starting charge for a 125gr jacketed bullet at 4.3gr HP-38 and a Max charge of 4.9gr HP-38. Your charge of 4.0gr is way below the starting charge recommended by the powder company and it's made worse by the longer OAL.
Here is the link to the Hodgdon Load Data Site.

 

[1SOW]

Shoot&Ski: In addition to what others said about the load your using, ALL powders burn more efficiently at some minimum pressure.

I load 9mm light for competition, and I too started with Win 231. With completely reliable loads to give me 1050'/min my gun was full of soot and powder residue after just a few shots. I upped the charge a little ( in .2 gr steps) and 'bingo' much cleaner, tighter groups and closer to point of aim.

I later switched powder to one that burns a little more efficiently with light loads and still gets tight groups and POA. Experimenting (within safe published standards) with bullets, powders and oals is the name of the game.

And a fun game it is when you hit the right load for you & your gun.

 

[Shoot&Ski]

Hodgdon lists a starting charge for a 125gr jacketed bullet at 4.3gr HP-38 and a Max charge of 4.9gr HP-38. Your charge of 4.0gr is way below the starting charge recommended by the powder company and it's made worse by the longer OAL.

Actually if you check the data for lead bullets, which rainier suggests using lead data for their stuff, the starting load is 3.8, so I started 4.0 grains, above the starting load.

I since have loaded a batch with 4.3 grains, and then 4.5 with the bullet seat closer to the minimum OAL and medium crimp and I have been seeing progressively better results.

Also, the only reason I started with HP-38 is that it was designed for 38's so I figured it must be the way to go. Otherwise, these being my first loads, I have no idea about one powder compared to another other than what the load info provides. I am thinking about trying Trailboss next. Any one like that stuff for this application? I like that the case is basically filled by the powder, and it is made for lower pressure applications

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Ski -
Sounds like you are now making progress. Congratulations. There's just so much about reloading that's not written anywhere, and that's not your fault. But, all the load books can only talk in generalities because the writers are not sure which gun or which bullet you're using.

Later when you try that powder with a different bullet or primer, you'll have some background with the powder and know how it shoots in your gun. Knowledge will come a lot faster at that point. I would suggest you continue to shoot the W231 with other light to mid-weight bullets first before swapping powders. That's a great first powder for any novice.

Trail Boss is powder formulated to mimic black powder for "Cowboy Action" type shooting. It's fluffy (very low density) and will fill the case better, but is going to be quite different in feel and results. The powder is so new that very few load books have data on it, so you might want to take that into consideration.

All the best!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

... I loaded some .38 special with Rainier Leadsafe 125 grains

Actually if you check the data for lead bullets, which rainier suggests using lead data for their stuff, the starting load is 3.8, so I started 4.0 grains, above the starting load.

Sorry, when I saw the work "Leadsafe" I thought of a TMJ bullet, not a plated bullet. Yes, you are correct, Rainier does recommend the use of Lead data bullets with their plated bullets. BUT, the lead load data does go all the way up to 4.8gr W231/HP-38 so you have plenty of room on the top end to make that load right. That Max charge of 4.8gr is only .1gr lower than the jacketed bullet data.