Understanding 'The Fence'--An Important Strategy

[Paul Gomez]

The importance of having the skills to, in the words of Craig Douglas, Manage Unknown Contacts is of inestimable value. Having MUC skills are more important than having devastating unarmed skills or amazing gun skills. It really is that important.

One component of controlling your environment when interacting with someone of unknown intent is a hand position known colloquially as 'The Fence'. This places your hands in an unobtrusive, non-combative posture that allows for both nontelegraphic preemptive striking and effective utilization of a non-diagnostic default cover position.


Understanding the Fence

 

[mcdonl]

Thanks Paul.

Interesting... after watching the original clip, and seeing how Geoff uses the fence in everyday interactions was pretty cool. I went out in my office to a co-worker and tried a couple of simple techniques and he never even noticed or batted an eye....

 

[conw]

Nice video Paul!

 

[xXxplosive]

I find your instructional vedio on The Fence method an invaluable training tool.

Also, wish you would do more on Count 2 Of Draw Stroke Retention Position regarding weak arm tactics...Steamrolling, etc. and in effect what the weak arm should be doing to create space.

Sorry.... didn't mean to hijack.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Thanks for the comments.

xXx, I do plan to cover more material addressing Count 2. It's on the list!

 

[xXxplosive]

Thanks Paul, I'll be lookin foward to it......IMO, it's a most important and essential area to be addressed.

 

[conw]

Pretty soon the 2-count and fence will be viewed as "standard" material, like "Isn't it obvious that they should be taught to all beginning firearms students?"

We aren't quite there yet. Remember, when we get there, that a few people - Craig Douglas, Paul, Geoff Thompson for the fence, and others - saw the need and are responsible for the common knowledge and usage of these techniques. It doesn't hurt to drop their names when you explain the techniques to someone - the firearms community and in general the internet has a tendency of forgetting who is responsible for popularizing techniques, and that's unfortunate.

 

[mbt2001]

Interesting video...

One of the problems that I see out there is that people learn "techniques" but not the principles behind those techniques. It then becomes people blindly or by rote engaging in these techniques and they get whipped.

Disrupt enemy formation and progress. Disrupt their balance, but maintain your own. Control your immediate surroundings. Different styles use or play on these principles in different ways, but the principles to victory are constant. Listen and learn the REASONS WHY these techniques work and do not be afraid to adopt something better or develop it yourself. Not everything works all the time in every situation.

My $0.02...

 

[leadcounsel]

Having MUC skills are more important than having devastating unarmed skills or amazing gun skills.

HOGWASH!!!!

You're saying that years of unarmed hand to hand combat and/or amazing gun skills are LESS valuable than learning the fence, which takes all of a 1 minute explanation. HOGWASH! Spouting off stuff like that eliminates credibility. I watched this video, and a few others. No offense, but I either disagree with many of the things you discuss, or find them either irrelevant or boring (like the 5 minutes spent explaining that a red Glock is an overpriced, pointless training aid, or the 5 minutes explaining how a person draws from a fanny pack - the size of a football-, which is an incredibly uncommon CCW device). Why buy a $600 "red" Glock when either a $40 plastic replica or just being careful with your regular one will suffice? And who in the world wears a fanny pack for CCW - and if they do, it's pretty easy to figure out how to draw. Unzip/unvelcro, and draw.

There are some outstanding Youtube videos out there. These are not it.

I'll be the first to give a negative comment on the "fence" technique. If you are going to go into the "fence" why not just move into a boxer stance? How does the fence protect you from a slash across your hands with a knife? How does the fence protect you from just being tackled. For most people, a razor blade slash (think exacto knife) across both outstretched hands or being taken to the ground is game over.

And better still, if you think you are going to get attacked to where a "fence" is needed, then create distance. Why are you in a conversation with the person standing right in front of them? I understand that in some circumstances it may be necessary to converse with a person but moving your hands into the "fence" may be perceived (just as much as fists) to be an agressive posture. This may be something for law enforement, but for the rest of us, if it's moving toward punches, I'm stepping back.

So if you're in a condition "alerted to danger" or "expecting a punch" why are you standing there talking to the aggressor.

In a situation where I am engaged in talking to someone where I think it may become violent, and if I'm armed, I:
1) Create some distance, even a few extra feet.
2) Angle body with off hand forward and gun hand rear
3) Front hand up in a "fence" mode
4) Gun hand ready to draw, or maybe even on the butt or drawing.
5) Verbal commands as necessary (Keep your hands where I can see them; back off; I'm feeling threatened by your words/tone, etc.).

Whether armed or not, the key is to disengage.

What I see the fence as doing as giving the opponent the opportunity to just tackle you, which can end very badly.

I'm not interested in going to the ground with someone with whome may have a shank/knife/knuckles/gun, blood borne virus, etc. Those extra few feet will give me the moments that I may need to draw if he lunges at me. Standing there with your hands in front of your face SLOWS your ability to get your sidearm and to the observer it may appear YOU are the aggressor in a boxer stance.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

This seems like a very combative posture, I assume I would be using this after the other person has already made their bad intentions known right?

 

[nyrifleman]

HOGWASH!!!!

You're saying that years of unarmed hand to hand combat and/or amazing gun skills are LESS valuable than learning the fence, which takes all of a 1 minute explanation. HOGWASH!

I think you're missing the point. That, or I am. From what I understand, "The Fence" is part of fight prevention (something that, unfortunately, very few people teaching self-defense focus on). You're telling the person "don't punch, because you can't punch [because your fist's flight to target is obstructed]"

 

[Fred Fuller]

Learning the fence is only a small part of MUC.

What MUC does best is help with the avoidance part of ADEE. Avoiding is better than fighting, no matter how mad your skilz.

We just spent half the day today with Leslie Buck of Tactical Arts Academy doing blade stuff. Guess what the start position was?

 

[leadcounsel]

My Judo instructor back in the day shared the following words of wisdom. The best self defense is:
1. Don't be there.
2. If you are there, move/leave.
3. If you can't move/leave, but some obstacle between you and your attacker.

I see this "Fence" tactic as inferior to distance. I also see it as very basic "put your dukes up." Putting your dukes up is inferior to drawing your firearm. If you have a gun, distance and your gun are your friend. If you don't have a gun, then "put your dukes up." My earlier point is #2, don't be there/move. Step back. The "obstacle, yes, could be your 'dukes.'" Preferably it's a table, car, some cover/concealment.

Re-labeling this as "fence" is like me repackaging an age old product as some "self defense breakthrough." That's like me renaming the "Weaver" stance as the "Leadcounsel" stance. When I watched the video, I was expecting some "wow" moment. Instead, it's about as fundamental as it can be. Put your dukes up, is what I think I learned on the playground in 3rd grade. And that's what this amounts to.

I'm not trying to be abrasive, but that's frankly how I see it. I'm surprised anyone learned anything from this 5 minute reminder to "put your dukes up."

 

[AOK]

I'll be the first to give a negative comment on the "fence" technique. If you are going to go into the "fence" why not just move into a boxer stance? How does the fence protect you from a slash across your hands with a knife? How does the fence protect you from just being tackled. For most people, a razor blade slash (think exacto knife) across both outstretched hands or being taken to the ground is game over.

And better still, if you think you are going to get attacked to where a "fence" is needed, then create distance. Why are you in a conversation with the person standing right in front of them? I understand that in some circumstances it may be necessary to converse with a person but moving your hands into the "fence" may be perceived (just as much as fists) to be an agressive posture. This may be something for law enforement, but for the rest of us, if it's moving toward punches, I'm stepping back.

So if you're in a condition "alerted to danger" or "expecting a punch" why are you standing there talking to the aggressor.

In a situation where I am engaged in talking to someone where I think it may become violent, and if I'm armed, I:
1) Create some distance, even a few extra feet.
2) Angle body with off hand forward and gun hand rear
3) Front hand up in a "fence" mode
4) Gun hand ready to draw, or maybe even on the butt or drawing.
5) Verbal commands as necessary (Keep your hands where I can see them; back off; I'm feeling threatened by your words/tone, etc.).

Whether armed or not, the key is to disengage.

What I see the fence as doing as giving the opponent the opportunity to just tackle you, which can end very badly.

I'm not interested in going to the ground with someone with whome may have a shank/knife/knuckles/gun, blood borne virus, etc. Those extra few feet will give me the moments that I may need to draw if he lunges at me. Standing there with your hands in front of your face SLOWS your ability to get your sidearm and to the observer it may appear YOU are the aggressor in a boxer stance.

I read you last two post and it seems like you understand how to appropriately utilize the tool. In addition, as Lapin said, it is just a portion of MUC. There are other tactics that lead up prior to the fence.

I'd also like to point out I don't recall anywhere in the video Mr. Gomez saying this is THEE way to handle every situation when MUC's when in close. It is purely A way. In my opinion it is A way that makes a lot of sense for certain situations, not every. Of course distance is king. Then again that option may not always be there.

 

[conw]

lead - in the spirit of spirited discussion, what do you do if someone doesn't present an obvious threat in a legal sense (no weapon, their hands aren't up, no verbal threat) but merely won't stop closing distance? What if they don't heed your verbal warnings? How do you "create distance?" Where does the gun come into play if the other party(ies) has not indicated they are a lethal threat or threats?

You can answer or view them rhetorically. I have a feeling that the reason you don't see the utility of using the fence in a nonconfrontational way is because you may have an artificial sense of how easy it is to maintain distance with unknowns, and also because you may not understand or know how much a good criminal can mess with your head and delay that draw by not being a threat in the legal sense.

 

[The M]

This particular fence is a bad idea because you're exposing your grasping tendons to the attacker. If he slashes you, guess what? You can't grip him or grip your gun/knife, pull the trigger, etc. You ideally want a fence where the back of your hands face the attacker, saving your gripping tendons from edged weapons. Keep your fingertips aimed at your own face to be effective later on in the fight.

 

[Zombiphobia]

someone call the Gecko I see this 'fence tactic' as mall-ninjitsu 101

Sorry, but I couldn't resist. No offense intended. Carry on and practice whatever 'tactics' you feel will make you more effective in a fight.... or whatever.

Personally, I think you'd all be better off taking an old fashioned karate class and some boxing and judo lessons.

 

[leadcounsel]

This particular fence is a bad idea because you're exposing your grasping tendons to the attacker. If he slashes you, guess what? You can't grip him or grip your gun/knife, pull the trigger, etc. You ideally want a fence where the back of your hands face the attacker, saving your gripping tendons from edged weapons. Keep your fingertips aimed at your own face to be effective later on in the fight.

A point that I was making before. All of your fingers and palms and possibly the front of your wrists (veins) are exposed. A swift person with a blade coming across could impact life threatening wounds. Heck, why not just stick your neck out there as well.

And the drawback is that you don't have closed fists for striking if the opportunity presents itself. A better stance is the one perfected by fighters over eons - for both defense AND offense.

This MUC stance reminds me of some pacifist stance ...

I see this 'fence tactic' as mall-ninjitsu 101

Thank you!!

To answer the question, when you start off your convesation saying

Having MUC skills are more important than having devastating unarmed skills or amazing gun skills. It really is that important

then you have my attention. But when your "MUC" skills are as presented and boil down to putting your dukes up, then I think you're full of hot air. Those MUC tactics against any UFC fighter, person with a blade that knows how to use it, or grappler, wrester, or boxer is going to destroy you. By reading this, it sounds like a person with MUC skills would defeat a skilled fighter or handgunner. Rrriiiggghhhtttt... this isn't some Jedi force. It's a 30 second demonstration that is marginally useful at best. At worst, instilling false confidence and dangerously exposing your open hands to injury.

@conwick - that's a good question. But my hands are going in one of two places; boxing stance or one hand out front and strong hand on my hip - in either case distance is my friend.

Look, this 'tactic' (if that's what we are calling it) may have some limited place; I can see maybe law enforement or bouncers - who have some escalation of force obligation and deal routinely with unsavory sorts - using this routinely. However, I have no such obligation nor do I engage these folks routinely.

My EOF obligations as a civilian are NIL. When I feel threatened, I am entitled to take action. I stated what my actions are. And I can say that this MUC style doesn't make any of my top responses.

 

[mcdonl]

lead - in the spirit of spirited discussion, what do you do if someone doesn't present an obvious threat in a legal sense (no weapon, their hands aren't up, no verbal threat) but merely won't stop closing distance? What if they don't heed your verbal warnings? How do you "create distance?"

You just described the typical call I respond to in the middle of the night as an ems provider. I thought that this technique provides some good information on how to keep my guard up.

On known dangerous situations you simply wait for pd to make the scene safe but things have a way of happening and happening fast. I thought that the tips the fence give are handy for my situations where things go bad fast, you are always "unarmed" and you are often enclosed in a box.

For me, this just gives me one more thing to consider when dealing with potential threats.

 

[AOK]

my hands are going in one of two places; boxing stance or one hand out front and strong hand on my hip - in either case distance is my friend.

Distance is superior without a doubt. Unfortunately it may not always be an option.

While MUC's is new to me recently, it is my understanding the fence can be different for everybody. Find what works for you. The second position you described of "one hand out front on strong hand on my hip" is a fence. This is actually more of a fence position I would prefer to use (versus some that I have seen so far) if there was ever an appropriate time to use it. My hand wouldn't necessarily be right on my hip but very slightly ahead and above my gun on my hip. In addition, the front hand would not just face him the whole time. It would move around a little as I'm talking to look as natural and non threatening as possible to avoid unnecessarily escalating a situation.

To me this is just another tool for the tool box. With all of my training in firearms, Krav, and edged weapons none of it ever covered a situtation beyond automatically knowing this is a threat and to engage it accordingly.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Learning the fence is only a small part of MUC.

This MUC is new to me, I've actually only seen it here where can I find more information?

 

[xXxplosive]

I like the explanation Conwict gives...........not sure of Condition Red yet but just "talking with your hands" to give you an edge if it should occur.....how many times have you conversed with another individual while in a Pugalist stance / dukes up......that's all OK if a threat is perceived but if not then what ?

 

[conw]

Those MUC tactics against any UFC fighter, person with a blade that knows how to use it, or grappler, wrester, or boxer is going to destroy you. By reading this, it sounds like a person with MUC skills would defeat a skilled fighter or handgunner.

This assumes equal initiative. I consider myself a grappler, wrestler, boxer, and person with a blade who knows how to use it. I also use the fence as a nonconfrontational strategy and it's part of regaining initiative should someone approach me rapidly in an ambiguous manner. Which is exactly how smart criminals do it.

The idea of the fence is that it bridges other pugilistic skills with nonconfrontational verbal and positional strategies. Boxing, judo, etc, do not teach that. MMA schools do not teach that. Taking a boxing or fighting stance when someone approaches you in a seemingly nonconfrontational way makes YOU look like the aggressor, and will probably start more fights than it prevents.

A good fence would have probably kept this guy from being KO'd:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1stmoAEvrx8&feature=fvst

A boxing stance? Not so appropriate for that type of ambiguous situation.

 

[Surf]

"The Fence" as mentioned is a non-confrontational type of technique that bridges the gap between "hands down" posture and a pure "dukes up" posture. The technique is not new and it is but one of many similar techniques taught to say LE as an "interview position or posture" or a means of either keeping space or closing a gap and doing so in a non-confrontational type of manner. It sets up or prepares the user to either quickly transition into defensive or offensive techniques. Similar techniques taught to PSD, Dignitary Protection, Security, Doormen etc.... "The fence" as seen in the video by the OP is a bit on the side nearing a pure transitional stage to an outright offensive or defensive tactic, but it is still sending a message in a defensive situation without going to clenched fists. Again there are many other movements used in a similar context to "the fence" which are often seen or referred to as "interview positions or techniques" in LE.

Now if it is "game on" from the get go there are other better suited techniques that we might go straight into, but IMO "the fence" or whatever you prefer to label it, is more to suit the intermediate gap from calm to full contact. Another way to perhaps describe it, for those who like the color labels, "The Fence" might be considered condition "yellow" between "green" and "red".

 

[conw]

Surf, agreed. Minor distinction, it might be considered more of a yellow-orange technique. But I am not a huge fan of the color codes past a minor didactic role anyway.

My own personal point of view is that pre-fight is vastly more important in the scheme of things than the fight. Keeping a wide field of awareness, counting potential BGs, taking an advantageous position, using verbal skills...none of that is taught in conventional pugilistic arts and it takes a LOT of processing power.

If we accept for the sake of argument that pre-fight is important, the fence is beautiful precisely because of its simplicity: you keep your hands up and can keep from getting KO'd (cf. Southnarc's "default position" or 3-point helmet), can use them to emphasize a point, can use pre-emptive strategies (eye-flick, step-off cross), etc.

If you only have two speeds, "hands down" and "dukes up," chances are you don't have a good pre-fight game down. And that tends to result in task overload since a smart criminal can very easily slow down your processing speed with verbal engagement, etc. If you check that Youtube link I posted, which appears to be more of a bar fight than a resource criminal assault, the victim was drawn into a verbal loop and totally KO'd. If he had better pre fight skills that probably would not have happened.

People seem to think there will be a big billboard telling them "FIGHT" or "CRIMINAL" but the good ones will get inside your bubble before you can do much, if you don't have some transitional skills.