Underwhelmed by Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition

[fireflyfather]

I had heard great things about the 3rd edition of this book, particularly that it listed loads for tons of different bullets by different manufacturers.

Upon ordering and receiving the 4th edition, I was underwhelmed, to say the least, by the paltry selection of lead bullets they offered data for, and the paltry selection of powders in each entry.

I was looking for good load data in 7.62x54R, 9mm luger and .38 special.

In 38 special, the only 158 grain load was a RNFP, not a SWC!

Does the older version have better load data and bullet selection? I feel like I got better data out of the Lee manual, which is kind of sad...

Specifically, I was looking at the Lee TL-356-124-TC using red dot/promo. Nobody seems to have much data for it...

 

[NWcityguy2]

The 4th addition? I've got the 44th on my computer and the 48th is at my local library. What year was the 4th addition even published?

Okay, now that we have that out of the way... For starters Lyman is not going to give you load data for a Lee mold. Secondly nose profile isn't going to change the load data, only the OAL.

The good thing is Alliant published a load for 125gr lead up until 2005 when they dropped a ton of loads and started pushing Speer bullets. 4.5 grains of Red Dot was max load. Min OAL is listed at 1.15. I use that same bullet and my OAL has to be 1.11 or less for it to chamber in one of my guns.

Here is a link to the Alliant 2004 manual with the load I quoted. http://glarp.atk.com/2004/2004Catalogs/2004AlliantPowderSM.pdf

 

[918v]

Are you from 1000 years into the future? The 4th edition is the latest one, just came out.

 

[fireflyfather]

The 4th addition? I've got the 44th on my computer and the 48th is at my local library. What year was the 4th addition even published?

Okay, now that we have that out of the way... For starters Lyman is not going to give you load data for a Lee mold. Secondly nose profile isn't going to change the load data, only the OAL.

The good thing is Alliant published a load for 125gr lead up until 2005 when they dropped a ton of loads and started pushing Speer bullets. 4.5 grains of Red Dot was max load. Min OAL is listed at 1.15. I use that same bullet and my OAL has to be 1.11 or less for it to chamber in one of my guns.

Here is a link to the Alliant 2004 manual with the load I quoted. http://glarp.atk.com/2004/2004Catalo...ntPowderSM.pdf

First off, CAST BULLET HANDBOOK, not reloading manual.....geez.

Secondly, the bullet mold I am talking about is a truncated cone, which WILL INDEED change load data, since almost none of the bullet sticks out. You would use different load data for a jacketed DEWC bullet than you would for a Jacketed RN bullet, because you are radically changing case capacity without changing bullet weight, therefore changing PRESSURE. With an OAL of 1.10 (required to get the rounds to chamber in the gun we were testing with) that's a fair bit of difference than the 1.15 OAL the JRN bullets the factory rounds came as.

Also the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook does indeed give load data for a fair number of Lee molds, just not a very good selection of them. They also list molds from other companies.


I've been loading this bullet for a couple of years, but it's been shot-in-the-dark, and use-a-long-string type loading. I've worked up to 3.8 grains, but I just don't feel safe loading it any hotter without a published source, sine 9mm probably wouldn't show enough pressure signs to be noticed before it became unsafe.

I was disappointed that the legendary cast bullet handbook didn't have nearly the load data I had been hearing about. I'm guessing that they backed off on load data from previous versions. Anyone have both editions and care to comment?

 

[res7s]

According to Lyman, they do include data from "select RCBS, Redding and Lee moulds".
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/cast-bullet4.php

I was told it really wasn't that good.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I had the direct opposite impression when I got my Cast Handbook 4th Edition. It does have more data for cast bullets than the 49th Edition load manual and it does for the first time provide data for molds other than Lyman molds which the 49th Edition manual also does not.

No manual can do everything for everybody but I think the 4th Edition Cast Bullet handbook is the best source available to us right now. I also have the 3rd Edition but it has less data because only Lyman mold bullets are listed in that book.

In 38 special, the only 158 grain load was a RNFP, not a SWC!

Since you crimp in the provided groove the bullet profile really doesn't matter so you can safely use 158gr data for both bullets. BUT, looking in the book I see they do list data for a 155gr SWC, 158gr RNFP and a 160gr LRN bullet. (page 256) That's more than any other manual provides.

Does the older version have better load data and bullet selection? I feel like I got better data out of the Lee manual, which is kind of sad...

Specifically, I was looking at the Lee TL-356-124-TC using red dot/promo. Nobody seems to have much data for it...

Red Dot/Promo are shotgun powders so you really can't blame Lyman for not having data for those powders with the one bullet you want to use in the 9mm. They list data for 8 different bullets from 90gr to 147gr and about 15 powders. They do have a 124gr Truncated bullet, the RCBS #9mm-124-CN and 9 powders. How much closer to the exact bullet mold you are looking for do they have to get?

I was looking for good load data in 7.62x54R, 9mm luger and .38 special.

They do list data for the 7.62X54R, it's on page 169. They list bullets from Saco, Lyman and Lee with 7 powders to choose from.

Give it a chance, I think you will realize it's not all that bad especially since no other current manuals provide data for lead bullets.

 

[steveno]

overall I think the Lyman manuals are close to the best because they cover a little bit of everything. they certainly cover the "how's & "why's" better than the other manuals. it takes a lot of time and money to put a manual together. heck I still use some of the Lyman manuals that are over 60 years old. I guess for the people that aren't happy they can go and make up their own manual and sell it.

 

[mgmorden]

I've actually got the 4th edition Cast Bullet Handbook and find the data in it quite extensive. Granted, I've never been one to worry too much about matching brands of bullets exactly to the data. As long as they're the same weight and general type of bullet it seems fine.

I actually got this book as part of a Lyman casting kit that can with a melting pot and such, and the amount of data in this book actually prompted me to buy Lyman's regular reloading manual (which I haven't had much time to flip through yet).

 

[ranger335v]

"I was underwhelmed, to say the least, by the paltry selection of lead bullets they offered data for, and the paltry selection of powders in each entry."

Interesting take on the book. I assume you haven't been loading cast bullets for long?

Lyman suggests the powders that work best. They don't list H-4831SC for .44 Rem Mag, etc, nor do many of us care that they don't.


"I just don't feel safe loading it any hotter without a published source, sine 9mm probably wouldn't show enough pressure signs to be noticed before it became unsafe."

You misunderstand what you're seeing in the loads and what you read about touchey 9mm-10mm loads and seating depth/OAL. Those are small capacity cases firing high pressure loads with bullets often seated at or into the lands so small seating differences can significantly alter the pressure in those two cartridges. But it hardly matters in larger cases and that's especially true for any revolver loads. Basically, you can be sure that seating to the crimp groove in any lead bullet will give you the 'right' OAL. Don't try to load just short of a KABOOM and a practical OAL change really won't matter in anything. ??

If you gonna have to see specific data for every bullet you may wish to reload your choices are going to be severly limited. So far as looking for specific data for various lube groove designs or nose shapes or gas checks, etc, you should remember that most cast bullet loads are low to modest pressure anyway and the precise shape of the bullet hardly matters, weight is the only significant criteria we have a use to know.

But, if you don't like Lyman's data, don't buy any more of their books and post your disappointment on the web; that'll fix em!

 

[fireflyfather]

I suppose I could have phrased it better, but what I was really trying to find out is if the 3rd edition had more data. From the replies it looks like the opposite is the case. I had a lot of people talk up this book to me, suggesting that it would have data for the loads I was looking for, and it didn't.

As for red dot being a "shotgun powder", for quite a while it was used in a lot of cast bullet rifle loads. The powders LCBHB #4 lists for 7.62x54R were worked up AFTER CE Harris used Red Dot in rifle rounds...he later switched to 2400, etc... which is what ended up in that section of the Lyman, but that seemed a bit odd that they wouldn't list it.

Also, I've managed to do all my cast bullet shooting exclusively with red dot/promo. It's fairly versatile, and it's probably the cheapest powder for the applications I need it for, both in terms of using low charge weights, and promo being dirt cheap on a per-pound basis.

You misunderstand what you're seeing in the loads and what you read about touchey 9mm-10mm loads and seating depth/OAL. Those are small capacity cases firing high pressure loads with bullets often seated at or into the lands so small seating differences can significantly alter the pressure in those two cartridges. But it hardly matters in larger cases and that's especially true for any revolver loads. Basically, you can be sure that seating to the crimp groove in any lead bullet will give you the 'right' OAL. Don't try to load just short of a KABOOM and a practical OAL change really won't matter in anything. ??

The only bullet I was having OAL issues with WAS a 9mm...and I had no basis for a max load, much less a starting load, since the book OAL I had for generic "lead 124gr" had about 1/3 of the lube grooves still showing. I got it figured out, but it would have been nice to have a better grip on where max was, not that I ever go there. I usually shoot starting loads.

As for the Lyman book, it's a fine book. It's just that it got talked up to me to be a lot more than it actually is. I was expecting dozens of bullet weights, types, and powders. Guess that'll learn me to listen to folks in the internet....(j/k).

I've been casting for about 6 or 7 years now, and it would have been a great read when I first started loading cast bullets.

 

[fireflyfather]

Since you crimp in the provided groove the bullet profile really doesn't matter so you can safely use 158gr data for both bullets. BUT, looking in the book I see they do list data for a 155gr SWC, 158gr RNFP and a 160gr LRN bullet. (page 256) That's more than any other manual provides.

While Lee doesn't provide details of WHAT lead bullet, they do list 11 or 12 different lead bullet weights for .38spl. I was hoping for something more like the lee manual, just with better description/selection of bullet types, not just weights. In any case, it doesn't look like that kind of resource is out there at all.

So, anyone know what a max load for 9mm 356-124-TC using Red Dot is? (wink)

 

[hang fire]

I have both the 3rd and 4th editions, and IMO the 3rd is the better of the two. 4th covers more recent cartridges and powders, but does so with less for older cartridges.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

While Lee doesn't provide details of WHAT lead bullet, they do list 11 or 12 different lead bullet weights for .38spl. I was hoping for something more like the lee manual, just with better description/selection of bullet types, not just weights. In any case, it doesn't look like that kind of resource is out there at all.

Sorry to tell you but, Lee does not do any of it's own testing. They only copy the data from bullet and powder manufacturers and put it in their book. If it's in the Lee manual it's also printed or posted elsewhere.

 

[poco loco]

Lymans 3rd

#356402

121g TC (#2 Alloy) 1.110 OAL

Red Dot 3.8 min 1020fps 26,400cup
4.5 max 1130fps 32,500cup

 

[fireflyfather]

Sorry to tell you but, Lee does not do any of it's own testing. They only copy the data from bullet and powder manufacturers and put it in their book. If it's in the Lee manual it's also printed or posted elsewhere.

Yeah. They make a big deal about how their data "comes straight from the powder manufacturers"...Still, it is a pretty extensive collection of data.

 

[fireflyfather]

Lymans 3rd

#356402

121g TC (#2 Alloy) 1.110 OAL

Red Dot 3.8 min 1020fps 26,400cup
4.5 max 1130fps 32,500cup

Thank you. So, perhaps the #3 did have some relevant data for my needs. Guess it's off to Ebay...

 

[dragon813gt]

You aren't alone. I was not that impressed. Everyone talks like it's the bible. The cast bullet manual is a lot better than their regular manual. Their regular one is always the last one I check. I still use the cast manual but all the loads are for their molds. I always end up having to pick one that's the closest.


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[cfullgraf]

No manual is perfect. That is one reason many folks have many manuals and hang on to their old ones.

Some manuals I will buy sight unseen because i know what i want is in there. Other manuals i will try to get a look at before buying because I am not sure the manual holds the information that I am looking for.

 

[Certaindeaf]

They used that old 121grTC for like forever. I never liked that slug. Red Dot is the way to go though.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you. So, perhaps the #3 did have some relevant data for my needs. Guess it's off to Ebay...

I took a look on Ebay and they want more for the 3ed edition than the new 4th Edition.

I usually say you will be better off looking on Amazon.com instead but it seems there are none available on Amazon but that's where I would check from time to time.

It's still available on the Lyman site but they want almost $21 for it. when Midway still had them they were charging only $16.