Undesirable time to "stovepipe"

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Haycreek

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We all think about it happening, and hope that it doesn't ! A Sheriff friend of mine, responded to a warehouse robbery, he and his deputy went to the front door, others to the back door. The two bad guys came out the side do, first perp raised a handgun and pointed it at the sheriff, the sheriff armed with a colt 1911, dropped him, the second perp came out and pointed his shotgun at the sheriff, the sheriff attemped to fire again-- only to realize that the second round stovepiped. Thanks to the deputy, the second perp threw the shotgun down instead of firing at the sheriff with a disabled 1911 . moral of the story, the 1911 became a "safe queen" and the sheriff has carred a S&W 19 ever since. Sometimes when s**t happens, it will cause us to change how we do things. IMHO, this is another many of us carry something else. The 1911 has been my favorite for more than 50 years, but it makes me think. Do you have visions of "stovepipes" when you holster your 1911 ? ;)
 
Are 1911's the only guns that stovepipe? Mine never has, neither has my CZ, but I've had other guns stovepipe on me. I don't feel the 1911 design is inherent to stovepiping, so it never enters my mind.
 
If a self-defense malfunction like that happened (with proven ammo) it probably wouldn't matter what gun was in my hand, it would instantly become a safe queen too. Life's too short, or at least can be.
 
I had a Beretta 92 stovepipe in the middle of a timed string in qualification once. Only time that gun ever stovepiped for me. I cleared it and go on. If you've fired thousands of trouble-free rounds besides the one failure, I don't find it unreasonable. Every gun is a mechanical device, and will occasionally glitch. I've even had revolvers, the 'perfectly dependable' choice, glitch. If the glitch is once every 2,000 rounds, and is quickly fixable like a stovepipe, live with it. If the glitch is every 100 rounds, use the gun for target practice. Things just happen.
 
Any auto can stovepipe. I believe if you put enough rounds thru a gun, it will eventually stovepipe.

I can only think of one auto I own that has NEVER stovepiped, but I only have about 200 rounds through it. USP45c (I'm not counting guns that have fewer rounds than that)

My P7M8 has only malf'd once in several thousand rounds, and it was a stovepipe.

My main P7M13, with prolly 15k+ rounds through it has stovepiped a couple of times.

Lessee.... USP Tactical, 1911, Makarov, etc.

They all have done it at least once.
 
Stovepipe

Spring steel extractors anyone? How about 14-pound recoil springs
in carry guns? How about a drop of oil in the frame rails once in a while?
How about 230-grain bullets and shooting the gun every so often to make sure it's right?

Luck!

Tuner
 
Prolly a lack of maintenance. My limited experience with the 1911 has taught me the pistol needs oil to run properly. Maybe the Sheriff should carry a revolver.
 
My carry G-19 with over 20,000 + rounds through it, 2000 + in IDPA matches, has never malfunctioned. That's the only gun I trust my life to. I love 1911's, I'm 62, in the past 40 years I have owned just about every model out there. Every one has malfunctioned at least once, including my current game gun, an STI Eagle. That's enough for me.
 
Machines

Exactly so, Riley. Though the 1911 isn't a high-maintenence weapon, that
doesn't mean that it can be neglected...even though many run quite well when they are.

Since it's assumed that a duty weapon may ultimately be the only thing that gets a man back to the wife and kids at suppertime, he should
see to it that the gun is clean and in proper working order...and that includes revolvers. The gun should be thoroughly wrung out to insure
functional reliability, and fixed if it's not right. Anything less is negligent and
plain stupid.

I don't trust any gun...not even one that I've fine-tuned...until I can put a
thousand rounds through without a stoppage.

Let us praise the gun...but let us also be realistic. Ya don't know until ya know...Ya know?
 
I've seen 1911s fail to feed, Glocks do same, Beretta 92FS stove pipe (which is a sight!), Sig 239 that would not feed three rounds in a row, S/W 586 lock up tight when ejector rod backed out, S/W 640 break a firing pin and Ruger revolvers tie up solid...Guess I could carry a big rock:confused:


;)
 
Blueduck,

Good points but I would prefer to use a big rock as a backup to a big sharp rock wich is a backup to a small knife which is a backup to a big knife.

:D

I depend on guns but never trust them.

-bevr
 
Machines-2

Exactly, Blueduck! There are far too many people who, having read the
latest gun rag article praising the, (name your weapon) go buy one...
run a half box of ammo through it...and carry it! I don't care what the
article says...I don't care who built the gun...I don't care if somebody else
tested it. I won't carry it until I'm satisfied with it.
 
Unfortunately we can't inspect to pistol and look for obvious flaws. But so far no one has considered that the sheriff might have chose the wrong time to limp-wrist the gun. Also, the magazine lips and follower might have not been adjusted for whatever bullet weight and cartridge overall length he was using. On too many occasions the gun is blamed for a malfunction before the real reason is discovered - if it ever is.
 
Old Fluff, Not likely a "limp wrist" this old sheriff is a very accomplished handgunner, and all around marksman, very experienced, uses factory ammo and everything, handgun kept clean and lubed, this man knows his handguns and how to use them, just one of those seldom occuring "stove pipes" that some times happens. He doesn't carry the 1911 for serious work anymore, can't say that I blame him, sometimes you may not have another chance. I still like and carry a 1911 at times, but I have more confidence with a Glock or CZ. [or revolver] Yes, I know about keeping the extractor tuned, good springs etc, but we all know that the 1911 is sometimes more tempormental than some----- Glocks may not have any "class" but they do "work". Incidently this Sheriff wouln't have a Glock as a gift, but he does like a good wheelgun. To each his own, we have lots of options !! :D
 
Haycreek:

In and of itself, using factory ammunition may not be a solution to preventing jams if the overall length of the cartridge is too short, and the magazine lips don’t release the cartridge as the bullet’s nose comes up against the feed ramp. I understand the sheriff’s desire to go back to revolvers, but at the same time it would be interesting to see if what caused the jam might be discovered. That said, none of us may ever know.
 
Its a poor shooter who blames his piece.

Sounds to me like he could have limp-wristed it under the pressure of shooting for his life ... could happen to anyone.


I'd go throw a few hundred more round through it before it became a safe queen.
 
Probably the sheriff has lost his confidence in the gun and even if that were the one and only time this pistol ever jammed...he will never feel safe with it.

For his own frame of mind, I suspect he should go on to the revolver. Not having confidence in your equipment is bad mojo.
 
The gun doesn't go "bang" when you press the trigger? Simply perform tap, roll & rack, and drive on.

In my opinion this isn't a hardware problem. It's a training problem, specifically a failure to be conditioned to intuitively perform the proper immediate action.
 
Stovepipe

Okay...The lawman was an experienced gunman. Still too many unknowns to make a call on the "why".

Heavier than standard recoil spring? Shock buffer in the gun?

I've known even savvy pistoleros to install 18 or even 20 pound springs and/or shock buffers in a carry gun because somebody told them that they "needed" more frame protection. These items are range accessories. A shock buffer can induce malfunctions. So can overspringing the slide. Argue with that until Finklestein joins the NRA and it won't change anything....even if a gun has been uber-reliable to date with them installed.

Ammunition is another unknown. 185-grain +p ammo can induce a stovepipe failure to eject. Pressures and ballistics have nothing to do with
it, and installing a heavy recoil spring only aggravates the problem. The
dictum that states: Changing one thing means that other things must be
changed applies to ammuntion too. When you induce a change in the
pressure, velocity, and recoil impulse by going to a light, fast bullet, you've
altered the timing of the gun.

Proper grip. Although I'm a die-hard believer that the gun should prove its
reliability when held with the loosest grip that can be managed before it
can be trusted, not everybody tests this. They assume that because they
always get the correct grip ON THE RANGE...that they'll be able to do it in
the stress of a deadly encounter. People have been known to lose bladder and bowel control under these circumstances...Is it reasonable
to believe that hand dexterity and grip strength aren't subject to the same
phenomenon? If the gun won't fire a full magazine to slidelock when lightly
cradled on the web of your hand and gripped with just the thumb and
trigger finger...with your wrist broken on two planes...you can NOT trust the
gun with your life until it will do so.

Finally...There's nothing wrong with a revolver. There have been many a
deadly gunman who would carry nothing else. Jimmy Cirillo is one example of a wheelgunner extrordinaire', though he's been known to carry a self-shucker. You can bet that the gun was thoroughly tested before he trusted it, though. Bill Jordan was another. Any Grand Masters wanna
draw down on a revolver man like Bill? Pay up on your life insurance policy beforehand. How about Jack Weaver?

More info...We need more info!

Cheers!

Tuner
 
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