Unique loading safety question

[bgamboni]

All, I am new to reloading and have successfully reloaded several rifle calibers.
In my state, a muzzleloader is only defined by loading the bullet down the barrel, hence the breech loading of powder is legal.
I have an idea to load 45-70 blanks using Hornady’s blank die set and then use a 45 cal sabot bullet loaded down the barrel seated against the blank. Essentially creating a gun like Traditions Nitrofire. Since the gun (CVA Scout 45-70) was designed for smokeless powder (center fire cartridges) I’m wondering about the safety of doing this. Would it be safe to use smokeless powder or some thing that creates less pressure like Blackhorn 209? I would never attempt to do this unless I knew it was safe and the first few test fires would be behind a barricade and pulling the trigger remotely.
Thoughts?

 

[EricBu]

All, I am new to reloading and have successfully reloaded several rifle calibers.
In my state, a muzzleloader is only defined by loading the bullet down the barrel, hence the breech loading of powder is legal.
I have an idea to load 45-70 blanks using Hornady’s blank die set and then use a 45 cal sabot bullet loaded down the barrel seated against the blank. Essentially creating a gun like Traditions Nitrofire. Since the gun (CVA Scout 45-70) was designed for smokeless powder (center fire cartridges) I’m wondering about the safety of doing this. Would it be safe to use smokeless powder or some thing that creates less pressure like Blackhorn 209? I would never attempt to do this unless I knew it was safe and the first few test fires would be behind a barricade and pulling the trigger remotely.
Thoughts?

In AZ, that would not qualify as a muzzle loader.....unless you welded the breach and left that case in there. Just sayin' A+ for creativity, but I don't think what you have will meet the definition of a muzzle loader, as long as what you have has a breach that can be opened, and cased ammo inserted or removed. And while it may or may not be safe.......you don't really have any way to set the bullet correctly from the muzzle into that case and seat it down on the powder consistently, and not at all with BP or pyro. You also have no way to pour the powder into the muzzle without it going 100% into the case, you'll have some building up around the case mouth, and I find it hard to accept that your state will allow the powder to be breach loaded. With BP or pyro, that bullet is meant to be seated all the way down on the charge, then compressed to the mark on your rod for the charge you use. Using BP or Pyro in your method, will leave a gap. Trying to seat a bullet into a case with a rod like that..I do not see anyway to make it consistent...imagine trying to seat a 45-70 bullet in a brass case with a 3 ft stick, blind, and seating it the same every time. Sure, you can probably get it to go bang......but you'll do better throwing rocks. If you really want to shoot a smoke pole...by a smoke pole, they are pretty cheap, and real easy to find at swap meets and such. Plus, they are easy to buy online since you don't need to ffl transfer them. I hate to crush your dream, but this does not sound like a good idea. But heck, I'm all for seeing what happens! I'll happy watch the video if you give it a whirl.

 

[Pat Riot]

I think I know what you want to do but I wouldn’t try this.

Are these the type of blank you mean?

Photo from here: https://www.midwayusa.com/Product/3...munition-45-70-government-blank-bpc-box-of-20

I would be leery because you’re pushing a “bullet” firmly against the area that would normally open unobstructed when fired. Pushing a bullet against it may cause an over pressure situation.
I don’t know this for sure, but I wouldn’t try it.

 

[Howland937]

I could tell you it's safe and perfectly legal. Hopefully you're smart enough not to take my word for it, or anyone else's here for that matter. I have no idea if it's safe or not, and it's likely nobody else who hasn't tried it would know either.

My humble recommendation for new reloaders is to master the basics before chasing wild geese down rabbit holes. Challenging enough already without looking for trouble.

You're still going to be loading a fresh blank into the breech each time, then loading powder, and projectile down the muzzle. What would be the gain over a modern, break open in-line?

 

[bgamboni]

In AZ, that would not qualify as a muzzle loader.....unless you welded the breach and left that case in there. Just sayin' A+ for creativity, but I don't think what you have will meet the definition of a muzzle loader, as long as what you have has a breach that can be opened, and cased ammo inserted or removed. And while it may or may not be safe.......you don't really have any way to set the bullet correctly from the muzzle into that case and seat it down on the powder consistently, and not at all with BP or pyro. You also have no way to pour the powder into the muzzle without it going 100% into the case, you'll have some building up around the case mouth, and I find it hard to accept that your state will allow the powder to be breach loaded. With BP or pyro, that bullet is meant to be seated all the way down on the charge, then compressed to the mark on your rod for the charge you use. Using BP or Pyro in your method, will leave a gap. Trying to seat a bullet into a case with a rod like that..I do not see anyway to make it consistent...imagine trying to seat a 45-70 bullet in a brass case with a 3 ft stick, blind, and seating it the same every time. Sure, you can probably get it to go bang......but you'll do better throwing rocks. If you really want to shoot a smoke pole...by a smoke pole, they are pretty cheap, and real easy to find at swap meets and such. Plus, they are easy to buy online since you don't need to ffl transfer them. I hate to crush your dream, but this does not sound like a good idea. But heck, I'm all for seeing what happens! I'll happy watch the video if you give it a whirl.

So to clarify I do have several muzzleloaders I have a smokeless and a new nitrofire. It’s more of a curiosity factor that I am pursuing
as well as not having to be reliant on the federal fire sticks.And I looked up the definition of muzzleloader in my state and it only states that the projectile hast to be loaded down the barrel and only capable of shooting one bullet. My state considers the new traditions nitro fire a muzzleloader even though the powder cartridge is pre-loaded and loaded from the breech. The whole point of this is able to have a way to keep your powder sealed and to decrease reloading time and just cause I think it’s cool. The difference between a center fire gun and the nitro fire is the nitro Fire has a shelf that the bullet sits on for loading consistency.

 

[Pottimus]

Put me in the camp of advising you to not do it...It sounds like firing a blank after obstructing the barrel. Aiming at a deer.??? I see no way to be consistent with this adventure, and then trying to explain your endeavor to a humorless Game Warden? Not saying I would not try it, but I would not advise it. I love it that you are looking at things differently and welcome to the Forum....

 

[bgamboni]

I could tell you it's safe and perfectly legal. Hopefully you're smart enough not to take my word for it, or anyone else's here for that matter. I have no idea if it's safe or not, and it's likely nobody else who hasn't tried it would know either.

My humble recommendation for new reloaders is to master the basics before chasing wild geese down rabbit holes. Challenging enough already without looking for trouble.

You're still going to be loading a fresh blank into the breech each time, then loading powder and projectile down the muzzle. What would be the gain over a modern, break open in-line?

No you wouldn’t load powder down the barrel. You would have a pre-charged blank that goes in the breech and then you load your bullet down the barrel and seat it on top of the blank. When you create the blank it has a cone shape and the sabot also has an inward cone that would sit on top of it. All of this is just an idea, and that’s how any innovation starts. The problem with the federal fire stick is I believe they purposely designed it so that you couldn’t make hand loads for yourself. You have to buy their fire sticks. if I can find a brass shell casing with identical dimensions to the federal fire stick then that would be ideal but I’ve come up empty-handed.

 

[bgamboni]

I think I know what you want to do but I wouldn’t try this.

Are these the type of blank you mean?
View attachment 1076187
Photo from here: https://www.midwayusa.com/Product/3...munition-45-70-government-blank-bpc-box-of-20

I would be leery because you’re pushing a “bullet” firmly against the area that would normally open unobstructed when fired. Pushing a bullet against it may cause an over pressure situation.
I don’t know this for sure, but I wouldn’t try it.

Yes you’re on the right path but instead of buying blanks with smokeless powder I would probably use Blackhorn 209 so that the pressures would be lower. And I would make the blanks myself.

 

[Pat Riot]

Yes you’re on the right path but instead of buying blanks with smokeless powder I would probably use Blackhorn 209 so that the pressures would be lower. And I would make the blanks myself.

I still wouldn’t try this. At least I wouldn’t try it while holding the rifle and surely not with my face behind the receiver.

 

[gwpercle]

I can tell you "Blank" powder is an extremely fast burning powder ... it only has a crimp to hold the pressure back so the powder , more or less simply explodes .
I was instructed to never try to load bullets with blank powder ... it was totally unsuitable for the task ...
I never did try it but we had plenty of 30-06 blank ammo meant to be fired in drill rifles at ceremonies ...21gun salute / 3 gun vollies and such .
Be careful with blanks and blank powder !
Gary

 

[EricBu]

So to clarify I do have several muzzleloaders I have a smokeless and a new nitrofire. It’s more of a curiosity factor that I am pursuing
as well as not having to be reliant on the federal fire sticks.And I looked up the definition of muzzleloader in my state and it only states that the projectile hast to be loaded down the barrel and only capable of shooting one bullet. My state considers the new traditions nitro fire a muzzleloader even though the powder cartridge is pre-loaded and loaded from the breech. The whole point of this is able to have a way to keep your powder sealed and to decrease reloading time and just cause I think it’s cool. The difference between a center fire gun and the nitro fire is the nitro Fire has a shelf that the bullet sits on for loading consistency.

Well, as a curiosity exercise, I certainly applaud it. If you use a BP substitute, I think your main issue will be the lack of that shelf in the Nitro Fire, not neccesarily an unsafe pressure spike. You won't have anything to seat the bullet against, other than the mouth of the case. I see it ending up with the bullet not actually seated into the case, but more resting on it, and I'm not sure how that might affect pressures? Plus, without that seal, I can see the powder coming out if you aren't keeping it upright, and almost certainly causing a squib. If you use some sort of smokeless powder, might be even dicier. Maybe something bizarre like cutting the brass down slightly, and compressing the powder with a paper wad, then seating the bullet against the paper wad and not actually trying to seat it into the brass Take some measurements, and figure out the right place to mark your rod so you know when the bullet is seated where you want it.

Really, I don't think your results will be any less safe than me as a young soldier dropping a cleaning rod down the barrel of my M16 onto a blank and popping a young german boar in the Kitzingen GE training area (yes we cooked it, and yes, it was good). I surely wouldn't do that now, lol, but at 19 it seemed a good idea, and it worked. Would put a cleaning rod section 3 inches into a tree trunk at 20 yards, and at 40 yards it was shooting around a corner;-) Now I know how horrible that was, and I cringe to think about it.

But really, if you want an alternative to having to buy ammo, I think you'd be chasing a far more fun rabbit down a much more entertaining rabbit hole if you teach yourself to cast for that 45-70, and learn the techniques of loading BP (actual, not pyro) cartridges for long distance shooting. One of my shooting buddies is very much into that...and it's quite amazing to shoot a 2 ft manhole cover at 1000 yards with a 45-70 sharps using venier tang sites.

 

[bgamboni]

Well, as a curiosity exercise, I certainly applaud it. If you use a BP substitute, I think your main issue will be the lack of that shelf in the Nitro Fire, not neccesarily an unsafe pressure spike. You won't have anything to seat the bullet against, other than the mouth of the case. I see it ending up with the bullet not actually seated into the case, but more resting on it, and I'm not sure how that might affect pressures? Plus, without that seal, I can see the powder coming out if you aren't keeping it upright, and almost certainly causing a squib. If you use some sort of smokeless powder, might be even dicier. Maybe something bizarre like cutting the brass down slightly, and compressing the powder with a paper wad, then seating the bullet against the paper wad and not actually trying to seat it into the brass Take some measurements, and figure out the right place to mark your rod so you know when the bullet is seated where you want it.

Really, I don't think your results will be any less safe than me as a young soldier dropping a cleaning rod down the barrel of my M16 and popping a young german boar in the Kitzingen GE training area (yes we cooked it, and yes, it was good). I surely wouldn't do that now, lol, but at 19 it seemed a good idea, and it worked. Would put a cleaning rod section 3 inches into a tree trunk at 20 yards, and at 40 yards it was shooting around a corner;-) Now I know how horrible that was, and I cringe to think about it.

But really, if you want an alternative to having to buy ammo, I think you'd be chasing a far more fun rabbit down a much more entertaining rabbit hole if you teach yourself to cast for that 45-70, and learn the techniques of loading BP (actual, not pyro) cartridges for long distance shooting. One of my shooting buddies is very much into that...and it's quite amazing to shoot a 2 ft manhole cover at 1000 yards with a 45-70 sharps using venier tang sites.

Appreciate the feedback. I think a better route is to find a reloadable alternative to the fire sticks. I’m looking at brass and shotgun casings.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

In AZ, that would not qualify as a muzzle loader.....unless you welded the breach and left that case in there. Just sayin' A+ for creativity, but I don't think what you have will meet the definition of a muzzle loader, as long as what you have has a breach that can be opened, and cased ammo inserted or removed. And while it may or may not be safe.......you don't really have any way to set the bullet correctly from the muzzle into that case and seat it down on the powder consistently, and not at all with BP or pyro. You also have no way to pour the powder into the muzzle without it going 100% into the case, you'll have some building up around the case mouth, and I find it hard to accept that your state will allow the powder to be breach loaded. With BP or pyro, that bullet is meant to be seated all the way down on the charge, then compressed to the mark on your rod for the charge you use. Using BP or Pyro in your method, will leave a gap. Trying to seat a bullet into a case with a rod like that..I do not see anyway to make it consistent...imagine trying to seat a 45-70 bullet in a brass case with a 3 ft stick, blind, and seating it the same every time. Sure, you can probably get it to go bang......but you'll do better throwing rocks. If you really want to shoot a smoke pole...by a smoke pole, they are pretty cheap, and real easy to find at swap meets and such. Plus, they are easy to buy online since you don't need to ffl transfer them. I hate to crush your dream, but this does not sound like a good idea. But heck, I'm all for seeing what happens! I'll happy watch the video if you give it a whirl.

I’ll hold his beer.

 

[wcwhitey]

Deleted