Universal Clays & .45 ACP

[jski]

I find comments to the effect that:

Hodgdon's data for Universal in .45acp 230gr FMJ is just wrong. I don't know how they compiled it, but their max load is about where Speer #14 says to start, with Speer saying 6.3gr is max. I tried it in my first .45acp reloads, using Hodgdon's data, and I think my first ones were sub 600fps.

I trying for something in the 900+ FPS range with a 230 gr FMJ bullet, in other words a +P load.

Have you guys experience this? I've seen this comment (not the same guy, by others) on multiple reloading forums.

 

[MEHavey]

#1:
"Universal" is NOT Universal "Clays"
See https://www.1911forum.com/attachments/clays-vs-universal-clays-jpg.593538/

"Clays" is very fast burn (think Red Dot)
"Universal" is more medium (think Unique)
(Y'all probably knew this anyway )

#2:
If you believe Slamfire, Hodgdon's data's a little on the low side.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/hp-38-vs-universal.795251/#post-10129812

#3:
That's why God made chronographs.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

https://forums.gunsandammo.com/discussion/23121/universal-universal-clays-clays-whats-the-difference

Universal is Universal, with Clays technology, and Universal Clays. All the same stuff.

Clays is a different animal. That may be what your trying to say.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/universal-or-universal-clays.465995/

 

[MEHavey]

Hence the different underlining of the two terms.
CLAYS ≠ Universal.

Very poor nomenclature in any case -- with significant opportunity
for unfortunate mix-up by those folks just starting out


.

 

[GooseGestapo]

IMO, Clays is too fast for OP’s purposes.
I’ve shot several pounds of CLAYS through my .45’s with the Lee 200gr H&G #68 style SWC. VERY accurate at 3.9-4.3gr for 800-850fps, but 900fps is over the top for this powder. That’s with a 200gr bullet, NOT a 230gr!

Universal isn’t a different story! 900fps won’t be easy.
The Lee 230gr TCRF is my favorite 230gr load and 850fps seems to be the sweet spot. I powder coat them with Harbor Freight red mixed with yellow for an orange color. Thank God and Lee for 6-cavity molds!

Although I’ve got gobs of other powders, if I had none, I’d try to start with Universal.
If Clays and 230’s is all you’ve got, 4.0 will be your “warm” load.

There’s a number of powders that will give a 230gr bullet 900fps. Clays ain’t one! And neither is Universal.
I find 850fps “enough “ with a 230gr bullet in a 1911.

 

[jski]

To clarify, I’m speaking about Universal. But in my defense, I see this everywhere:

 

[Charlie98]

Very poor nomenclature in any case -- with significant opportunity
for unfortunate mix-up by those folks just starting out

Kind of like 'magnum primers.'

 

[jski]

Now back to the original point. What’s a good +P recipe for a 45 ACP with a 230 gr FMJ bullet on top using UNIVERSAL?

 

[AJC1]

I would download GRT and run the numbers. I had it but my pos computer crashed. This should give you data that you can compare with book numbers and other data sources.

 

[jski]

IMO, Clays is too fast for OP’s purposes.
I’ve shot several pounds of CLAYS through my .45’s with the Lee 200gr H&G #68 style SWC. VERY accurate at 3.9-4.3gr for 800-850fps, but 900fps is over the top for this powder. That’s with a 200gr bullet, NOT a 230gr!

Universal isn’t a different story! 900fps won’t be easy.
The Lee 230gr TCRF is my favorite 230gr load and 850fps seems to be the sweet spot. I powder coat them with Harbor Freight red mixed with yellow for an orange color. Thank God and Lee for 6-cavity molds!

Although I’ve got gobs of other powders, if I had none, I’d try to start with Universal.
If Clays and 230’s is all you’ve got, 4.0 will be your “warm” load.

There’s a number of powders that will give a 230gr bullet 900fps. Clays ain’t one! And neither is Universal.
I find 850fps “enough “ with a 230gr bullet in a 1911.

Alright, what's your recipe using UNIVERSAL with a 230 gr bullet to get 850 FPS ? Charge weight?

 

[Walkalong]

Now back to the original point. What’s a good +P recipe for a 45 ACP with a 230 gr FMJ bullet on top using UNIVERSAL?

What about the Speer # 14 manual you mentioned?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Speaking of pounding square pegs into round holes, International isn’t Clays or Universal either but in Australia (where it is/was made) it’s sold as AS50N, with a burn rate similar to 700X, Accurate No.5, WAP and Green Dot and it’s used for high velocity loads in the 200-230gr load range. But here in the US you won’t find .45ACP loads for International (that I’ve found). Gotta wonder if the Australians are just all that hard up for pistol powder or if maybe they know something we don’t.

 

[MEHavey]

Alright, what's your recipe using UNIVERSAL with a 230 gr bullet to get 850 FPS ? Charge weight?

Do you have a chronograph?
A (slightly) stronger recoil string?

 

[GooseGestapo]

Jski, here you are!

Lee #2 pg 670; 6.0gr Universal for 853fps 16,900cup

 

[MEHavey]

Lee #2 pg 670; 6.0gr Universal for 853fps 16,900cup

Unfortunately, that's standard 45 ACP
http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

+P is 100fps beyond that, which is why I suggested a chronograph to
judge QuickLoad's calibration against Slamfire's actual Universal data.

That calibration tells me exactly what 950fps would require, but I'd want
a chronograph to confirm.

.

 

[MikeInOr]

I find comments to the effect that:

I trying for something in the 900+ FPS range with a 230 gr FMJ bullet, in other words a +P load.

Have you guys experience this? I've seen this comment (not the same guy, by others) on multiple reloading forums.

Just curious, why do you want a hot .45acp load?

 

[jski]

Do you have a chronograph?
A (slightly) stronger recoil string?

I've got a LabRadar and I'm really targeting my S&W Model 25 using Starline A(uto)R(im) brass.

 

[MEHavey]

In that case, run the Universal up to 6.3/6.5gr.
(6.5 predicts 950fps still under 23ksi in a 1911)

(The cylinder gap's going to throw things off a bit in a revolver/mitigated by a longer effective barrel)

.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've got a LabRadar and I'm really targeting my S&W Model 25 using Starline A(uto)R(im) brass.

Do what Elmer did: keep pushing the pressure until you get your target velocity or the gun blows up. Simple.
Or I guess you could use a powder that’s already been documented to deliver +P velocities with a 230gr .45ACP but where’s the fun in that? Universal is supposed to be universal! Load up until she blows.

 

[jski]

Do what Elmer did: keep pushing the pressure until you get your target velocity or the gun blows up. Simple.
Or I guess you could use a powder that’s already been documented to deliver +P velocities with a 230gr .45ACP but where’s the fun in that? Universal is supposed to be universal! Load up until she blows.

Shear genius! How could anyone ever doubt it? Such an intellect is extraordinarily rare indeed! Maybe you can bottle and sell it?

 

[jski]

Just curious, why do you want a hot .45acp load?

Is ~900 FPS with a 230 gr FMJ bullet really a hot a +P round? 850 FPS is “good enough”.

 

[MEHavey]

Not w/o Internal ballistics program that's already been calibrated at a lower load
Not w/o a chronograph
Not w/o an overdesigned action as failsafe.

 

[MEHavey]

As noted in the Ref above, 850 velocities are expected/standard in 1911 actions
Above that, or in other actions, you need to know what you're doing (outside of the Keith methodology)

 

[jski]

As noted in the Ref above, 850 velocities are expected/standard in 1911 actions
Above that, or in other actions, you need to know what you're doing (outside of the Keith methodology)

Then what’s a standard +P velocity?

 

[AJC1]

Then what’s a standard +P velocity?

If you download the western powders ramshot manual there are many documented +p loads up to 1000 fps out of a full size 5". Forcing a powder to do something is like demanding oral sex from a shark. Probably not going to work out well.