Universal Clays & .45 ACP

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jski said:
Shear genius! How could anyone ever doubt it? Such an intellect is extraordinarily rare indeed! Maybe you can bottle and sell it?
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Yup. I've done it, too, using Sierra's JHC 240gr. and Blue Dot in .45AR using published data from Sierra. It's not a +P load at 900fps out of my 1917 S&W "Big Ugly." Sierra also lists "Universal Clays" for ".45ACP (Revolver)" and it's not a +P load, either. BUT those loads are with their bullets. And if you read the warnings - which I highly recommend - you will note Sierra sizes and cannelures their bullets very specifically for these types of applications so using their data with another maker's bullet is not safe or recommended. Oh, I don't doubt you'll get away with a few dozen or so and not blow a gun up... but it only takes one so I would say stick to the data Sierra puts out to the letter. Or, experiment. I'm pretty sure a modern Model 25 can take several dozen proofing loads before it lets loose. Pretty sure.
A18A6672-E947-4E51-A329-C46439E463F5.png
 
Blue68f100 said:
With the right powder you can get high velocities without getting into +P pressure loads. I was looking the other day and WSF was giving me over 1000 fps in a 185gr XTP. And i was 0.4gr below max.
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Well, YOU know that and I know that but he didn't ask for "standard pressure/high velocity" he asked for "+P loads" specifically with "Universal Clays." The only reference I know of which lists "Universal Clays" and .45ACP revolver loads is Sierra and they aren't +P loads. I figure it's a peg-pounding exercise - make the square pegs fit the round holes - so why bother posting what's known to work if it doesn't fit the criteria?
 
MEHavey said:
"Univ,Clays" (above)
That is a prime example of an absolutely lousy data entry/naming.
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Agreed! And from Sierra, of all sources! It's not the product's correct name.
Doesn't' fit the OP's specifications but it's close. Not +P, not 230gr. FMJ, and I've never tested it, personally. To me using Universal with a high-vel .45ACP is kind of counter-productive. Why bother when there are better powders out there - like No.7, for example? N330, 3N37, WSF and Silhouette never vanished during the entire Plandemic shortage. Why not use what's made for the application? Kinda makes sense to me.
 
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MEHavey said:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/universal-clays-45-acp.909540/#post-12388376

Look at the cited reference in that post.
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Well, for starters, its badly mixing values. +P is more pressure, not necessarily higher velocity. A 300gr. Sierra JSP .4515" bullet (built for the .454Cassull and .45Colt "Ruger" hunting loads) stuffed into a .45AR sitting on 6gr. of Unique is going to be near a proofing load - +P++ - but the odds are pretty good it won't get much over 800fps. Then again, a .45AR with a Sierra 185gr. JHP over 8gr. of Unique is going to be moving close to 1100fps from a standard 1911A1 action/barrel without coming close to +P pressure. It just depends.
 
Universal, HP38, w231 unique have pretty close to the same burn speed and make great 45acp ammo.

Clays is much faster, more like reddot, nitro100nf, bullseye. I say don't try to +p powders like that in a 45acp.

There is no +p velocity. The lines are blured. One of my favorite +p loads in 9mm uses nitro100nf. It pushes a 124gr bullet about 1,000fps, there are standard p loads that use more slower burning powder and give higher velocity. It's my silencer load because it's clean burning, quiet and slings HPs fast enough to open them up.

With really fast powders like reddot, bulleseye, wst, Clays you may only get 600 to 700fps in a 45acp pushing 230gr bullets. For example I found a great 230gr silencer load using wst. It is very accurate, has nearly single digit SD, but only does about 700fps, which does not open up a hollow points. I tried to bump the powder charge to the max load to up the velocity and make the hollow points open up, but I got 50 to 70fps SD and bullets were flying all over the place.
So I went with HP38 and got the accuracy, velocity and silence I was looking for with 230gr.

Ramshot Enforcer has a 45acp 230gr load that does 1,050fps with standard pressure. But it's not a practical load. It uses 3x more powder than a typical 45acp load, creates cataclysmic muzzle blast and harsh recoil. They're really not that fun to shoot.
 
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GeoDudeFlorida said:
Well, for starters, its badly mixing values. +P is more pressure, not necessarily higher velocity.
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No..... +P produces higher velocity, for a higher pressure, for a given bullet. That's the whole point. :cool:
(Sure I can vary the powders and vary the the velocities within a given standard pressure, but then that's playing outside the intended +P sandbox)
Did you actually look at the chart correlating the two: (+P pressure --> higher velocity... same 230gr bullet?)
 
MEHavey said:
No..... +P produces higher velocity, for a higher pressure, for a given bullet. That's the whole point. :cool:
Did you actually look at the chart correlating the two: (+P pressure --> higher velocity... same 230gr bullet?)
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Don't be silly. P is not V. Mass matters. So does bullet shape, diameter, material... saying "+P is always faster" is just not true. End of story and my interest in helping jski "investigate" random internet ramblings. This is like trying to figure out if the drunk on the 3AM cross-town bus really can fly if he finds a tall-enough building. Worse, it's arguing over whether or not the named buildings are tall enough by an inch or two.
 
there are some +p loads that are slower than standard loads ...
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Commercially-loaded? (which is where the nomenclature started as an indicator of increased performance),
and for the same bullet?

Sure I can HANDLOAD for higher pressure/poorer performance:

LYM LFN 452374(30:1) 234gr
POWER PISTOL 989_fps 23,000psi
Alliant RED DOT 878_fps 23,000psi

But that completely falls outside the understanding/intent of "+P" by anyone save lawyers
 
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The subject has been covered and recovered.

All I can add is my Hornady nor Nosler book lists ANY loads in .45 ACP for Universal or Clay's.

I don't do +P loads. Why stress my pistol. IF I need more, I move up to .44 Mag.
.45ACP 230 gr @ 850 fps is enough. I much prefer 200 gr @ 950 fps.

Just MHO. Not in the book, not in my gun.
 
AJC1 said:
If you download the western powders ramshot manual there are many documented +p loads up to 1000 fps out of a full size 5". Forcing a powder to do something is like demanding oral sex from a shark. Probably not going to work out well.View attachment 1098279
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You can get Ramshot and Accurate data from Hodgdon's website as well. And I did when first considering this. That's why I didn't think something around 900 FPS was "pushing" any limits. But that's why you ask!!!

I also called Smith and asked if the Model 25 could handle +P ammo: YES. And I also emailed Starline’s ballistician and asked if their AR brass could handle +P pressures: NO PROBLEM.
 
jski said:
You can get Ramshot and Accurate data from Hodgdon's website as well. And I did when first considering this. That's why I didn't think something around 900 FPS was "pushing" any limits. But that's why you ask!!!

I also called Smith and asked if the Model 25 could handle +P ammo: YES. And I also emailed Starline’s ballistician and asked if their AR brass could handle +P pressures: NO PROBLEM.
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I posted your load.
upload_2022-8-23_14-2-38.png
Hunting load: Univ. Clays 7.0gr. 1100fps with a 240gr. JHC. And that's not a +P load. Standard pressure.
 
jski said:
WHOA THERE! WHOA!
That's way beyond what I was looking for! And I thought I was pushing limits unwisely at ~900 FPS?

Where did you get these loads from?
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The Sierra loading app for iPhone. I took a screenshot of the 240gr JHC .45ACP (Revolver) loading data. In my opinion, if you are going to run the .45ACP faster than John Browning designed it, you might as well use a hunting bullet to do it. With .45AR and that same bullet I prefer Blue Dot. I get better case fill and the same velocities at lower pressures versus the other powders listed. According to Sierra. And I do follow the book recommendations including the use of R-P brass.
Sadly the iPhone app is no longer available but if you have an Android device that app is still working. Not sure if it’s still free or not.
By the way, I don’t have any problems with experimenting or trying to swap powders but going outside the recommended loads is risky. Be aware of the risk and mitigate it by working up to your goals slowly - like Elmer Keith did. One of the risks is you might miss a warning sign and damage a gun. Be ready for that if you experiment in earnest.
And don’t take yourself too seriously. Life’s just too short for that. ;)
 
Gentlemen, this thread started w/ discussion on how to safely get a 45ACP
going ~900fps using a 230gr bullet in a "+P" environment (22-23,000psi.)

Over the last several posts it has introduced loads approaching 29-30,000psi.
It would be beneficial to step back a reconsider both sources & methods....
and the fact we are now into apples vs oranges.

From the actual Sierra source of that data:
45-AC-Revolver-Sierra.jpg

Take care....


.
 
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MEHavey said:
Gentlemen, this thread started w/ discussion on how to safely get a 45ACP
going ~900fps using a 230gr bullet in a "+P" environment (22-23,000psi.)

Over the last several posts it has introduced loads approaching 29-30,000psi.
It would be beneficial to step back a reconsider both sources & methods....
and the fact we are now into apples vs oranges.

From the actual Sierra source of that data:
View attachment 1098386

Take care....


.
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“All loads listed are safe for all the revolvers listed…”. OP has stated he is loading for a S&W Model 25. And, these are not +P loads. Sierra tested in a Freedom Arms Model 83. Where does Sierra state that the listed loads are 30kpsi? It’s not in the posted snip. And, yes! Always proceed with caution! Could a sworn that’s been stated a few times.
But, the real point is, the OP doesn’t need to enter +P territory to meet his velocity goals; he needs to consider using a different powder-bullet combination.
 
I can tell you right now, calibrated QL shows 28,200psi for that 7.0gr Unique load previously posted.
Here to date/time, no one had listed the Sierra caveats that this was exclusively a high-strength revolver load.
The fine print/whole story matters... a lot. Other casual readers downstream might not be able to dig it out sifting through these threads.

...and the OP has already been given the magic ("Universal") formula for a 900-950fps/230gr well under +P/23,000psi


.
 
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MEHavey said:
I can tell you right now, calibrated QL shows 28,200psi for that 7.0gr Unique load previously posted.
Here to date/time, no one had listed the Sierra caveats that this was exclusively a high-strength revolver load.
The fine print/whole story matters... a lot. Other casual readers downstream might not be able to dig it out sifting through these threads.

...and the OP has already been given the magic ("Universal") formula for a 900-950fps/230gr well under +P/23,000psi


.
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Sierra lists the S&W 1917 and Colt New Service - War One revolvers - along with the Taurus 445. Sierra doesn’t show pressure. They do list separately +P loading data. It could be claimed that proclaiming published data unsafe might be slanderous. Before claiming Sierra is publishing deceptive data which is excessive for revolvers they say are safe consider the ramifications of slandering such a large corporate entity. Be safe and remember no one is perfect. We’re using published data explicitly for the firearm being tested.
 
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