Universal Clays vs Hogdon Clays

[area51]

is Universal Clays as clean as Hogdon Clays ? I load 38spcl and 45 acp and Hogdon Clays is by far my new favorite powder. Accurate and clean.

 

[rsrocket1]

So long as you load it to proper pressures. The nice thing about Clays and Universal is that even if it is loaded too light and underpressured, they still burn fairly cleanly with few unburned flakes, but it still gets smokey and a little sooty. Alliant Unique, Bullseye, Red Dot (from my experience) leave quite a bit more unburned flakes when underpressured.

I regularly shoot 3/4 oz 12 gauge loads in a gas operated shotgun and am constantly battling low pressure. Red Dot does leave more unburned flakes in the barrel, but they get blown out with the next shot and the flakes do not build up, nor do they show up in the action so I don't worry about it. With handgun loads, I just ensure that my loads are in the medium pressure range or better and get no flakes with Bullseye/Unique/Red Dot. With Clays, I almost never see unburned flakes regardless of the load.

You might have a tough time finding any of the "Clays" type of powder until at least next year. If you can find it, grab it.

 

[area51]

You might have a tough time finding any of the "Clays" type of powder until at least next year. If you can find it, grab it.

Tell me about it... I am down my last 1/2 lb.... it sucks. I've loaded with Bulleye and I forgot how dirty it could be

 

[sexybeast]

In March when I could not find any HP38 a friend offered to sell me a 8lb keg of Universal Clays. Had no idea what great power it was. Meters well and is quote "universal". You can load any pistol round with it and its cleaner than most. I heard Clays is very clean too, perhaps cleaner than Universal.
I'll never buy any Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, or 700x again. Too many other great powders out there like Universal, Titegroup, Clays, and Hp38.

 

[PO2Hammer]

For light loads, no, Universal is not as clean.
You need to bump up the pressure with Universal to get it to burn as clean. Universal is my most used powder, but nothing really competes with Clays in low pressure cartridges.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, Universal is a clean powder as long as you are up near the top end of the pressure range. (like most powders are) If you like Unique but hate how dirty it can be and how terribly it meters you will probably like Universal as a replacement.

 

[Mark in GA]

I have always viewed Clays and Universal as Hodgdons cleaner burning replacements for Red Dot and Unique respectively. I just wish I could find some.

One thing I did find with Universal is that at the lower end the pressures drop off pretty dramatically. Is you intend building super light loads, I would use Clays but not Universal. Going too low might get you a bullet stuck in your bore with Universal. If you are going for reasonable practice/factory duplication and/or midrange loads Universal does great.

Mark in GA

 

[sexybeast]

I have always used starting loads or a little below starting loads with Universal and never had a problem. Loaded thousands of 115gr 9mm cast and its been one of the most consistent lower-pressure loads I have made.
Same with 38special. Its awsome medium speed powder. I too wish I could find some but my order of HP38 will be arriving next week.

 

[1KPerDay]

You might want to check out American Select also. Very clean even at light handgun loads IME.

 

[oneounceload]

Both Universal and Clays are well-suited for 38/9/45 type pistol cartridges. However, with the fire in Australia, there won't be any available for quite some time

 

[mtrmn]

I used an entire pound of Universal Clays on 9mm, 45acp and 38 Super. Did not find a single load in any of those 3 guns that even came close to the good groups I got with Unique. I gave the 2nd pound away and ceased looking for a "cleaner" powder. This is just my experience thrown out there for y'all to snicker at. YMMV

 

[Dudedog]

I have used Universal in 9mm Mak, 9mm Luger, light-medium .357 and .45 and liked it a lot. It seemed to work well for all of them. Clean, meters well.
Only thing I don't like about it is I can't find any right now:banghead:

 

[MEHavey]

...is Universal Clays as clean as Hogdon Clays ?

"Clays" and "Universal" are two entirely different powders. Both are Hodgdon** powders.
The fact that one says "Clays Technology" in small letters does not make the same as "CLAYS" powder.
Don't confuse the two.



CLAYS has a burn rate of 6.7 -- very fast
UNIVERSAL, on the other hand, burns at ~2.4


** Hodgdon in the sense that they are imported by Hogdon from Thales Australia Defense Industries (ADI)

Note also:
ADI Powder/Hodgdon naming
AS30N.................Clays
Trail Boss.............Trial Boss
AS50N.................International
AP70N.................Universal
AR2205...............H4227
AR2207...............H4198
AR2219...............H322
BM2....................Benchmark
AR2206H.............H4895
AR2208...............Varget
AR2209...............H4350
AR2213SC...........H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217...............H1000
AR2225...............Retumbo
AR2218...............H50BMG

Note also that ADI had a disruption in their production of "AD70N" a few months back, and won't be restarting until 2014.
Why do I care? Because AD70N = Universal

postscript: ADI also makes IMR8208.
Bottom Line? If the Aussies go down, we are in a world of hurt.

 

[silicosys4]

Wow...I picked up 4lbs of hodgdons clays a year ago and forgot about it because I didn't like its narrow load range...only a 0.5 grain window of safe charge weight In .38spcl, if I remember right....but it sounds like people that are using it regularly are liking it....
Does anyone have problems, or solutions for problems, in metering and throwing clays while keeping the charge weights consistent enough, or am I good to go with the hornady lnl powder throw?

 

[sexybeast]

Wow...I picked up 4lbs of hodgdons clays a year ago and forgot about it because I didn't like its narrow load range...only a 0.5 grain window of safe charge weight In .38spcl, if I remember right....but it sounds like people that are using it regularly are liking it....
Does anyone have problems, or solutions for problems, in metering and throwing clays while keeping the charge weights consistent enough, or am I good to go with the hornady lnl powder throw

I have never used Clays so this is second hand. A very experienced shooter who loads and shoots at least 2k of 45acp each month once told me that Clays can be a bit scary to use. He basically said that to make Major power factor with Clays with a 230gr bullet is pushing your luck. A pressure spike can occure with a catastrophic failure. [Kaboom]
I'll say again I have never used Clays and hopefully someone who uses clays alot can comment on this. Universal Clays on the other hand is one of the best all round powders in my experience. Loved it and like others I wish I had more.

I used an entire pound of Universal Clays on 9mm, 45acp and 38 Super. Did not find a single load in any of those 3 guns that even came close to the good groups I got with Unique. I gave the 2nd pound away and ceased looking for a "cleaner" powder.

Buddy!! Do you have any left to give me?

 

[silicosys4]

I have never used Clays so this is second hand. A very experienced shooter who loads and shoots at least 2k of 45acp each month once told me that Clays can be a bit scary to use. He basically said that to make Major power factor with Clays with a 230gr bullet is pushing your luck. A pressure spike can occure with a catastrophic failure. [Kaboom]

Hodgdon says for a 230 gr. bullet, using clays, min charge is 3.7 gr, max is 4.0.....that's not enough range for me to feel comfortable with my charge weights unless I'm hand weighing every single charge. Certainly doesnt give me happy feelings about using it on my progressive. Max charge velocity is listed as 730 fps....major power with a 230 gr. bullet is something like 716 fps, so yea....I can think of better powders to make major power with in that load.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I only use Clays for light lead and plated loads. Anything else gets a slower powder. I never use it for 45 auto ball ammo or jacketed revolver rounds.
It does meter very well in my Redding 10X.

 

[silicosys4]

Wow, in further perusing of hodgdons load data for clays...for .45 acp, if you are using a 200 gr swc, you have a min charge of 3.6 gr and a max of 4.3 gr....a decent window to work with....but all other bullet weight offer a smaller charge weight range to work with, and 155 gr. lswc's have a whopping 0.2 gr between min and max charge.....good thing I have a 200 gr swc mold, with 155 gr loads I could vary between min and max, or anywhere in between, just in the inconsistencies of my powder throw!

 

[area51]

I've used 200 swc and 230 grains with 4.0 grains successfully. The last load I used 185 plated fp from extreme with 4.3 grains and they ran flawless in both the g30sf and a Kimber Royal II.

IMHO, Clays meters great, it's extremely clean and very very accurate. I've also had great luck with WST which unfortunately, there is nowhere to be found in my neck of the woods.

 

[sexybeast]

I know a few fellow shooters/competitiors who use clays and they love it. It is clean and it does measure great. Also you don't need much to push a bullet so it goes very far. All this is true. But,,, I have had several people "in the know" who say that you can't push it too far and have to have real control of your loads. Real bad things can happen.
I know another shooter who shoots 230gr with 5.6gr of titegroup. Way over! Lots of flame. Scary to watch! But he gets away with it and his Ruger 1911 keeps on running. Some powders have pressure spikes. Clays [from what I have been told] is one of them.
I'd rather use titegroup or bullseye and clean my precious 1911 more often.

 

[area51]

I'd rather use titegroup or bullseye and clean my precious 1911 more often.

Bullseye and titegroup are faster burning powders than Clays....

If you stay within the recommended limits, every powder will serve you well. Just my .02 cents. Don't get me wrong, I love Bullseye but it's filthy. I love TG in my 9mm and 40... I don't use anything else for those 2 calibers.

 

[sexybeast]

Yeah, but not by much. And for some reason Red Dot is slower. They are all fast and in my opinion 231 is where the seperation is.
I have no experience with clays. Never loaded it. CAn't find any now and I know its popular. But I really like Universal for any pistol cartridge.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Bullseye and titegroup are faster burning powders than Clays....

If you stay within the recommended limits, every powder will serve you well. Just my .02 cents. Don't get me wrong, I love Bullseye but it's filthy. I love TG in my 9mm and 40... I don't use anything else for those 2 calibers.

Not according to the powder burn rate chart put out by Western Powders AND Hodgdon.

Hodgdon lists Clays as #10, Bullseye as #13 and Titegroup as #14.
http://hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Western powders also lists Clays on the 5th line of their chart, Bullseye on the 6th line and Titegroup on the 8th line. I'm not so sure the Western Powders chart is all that accurate because of some of their listings though.

 

[sexybeast]

You can look at several burn rate charts and see the fastest ones rated a little different. But they are all fast. I prefer titegroup because several other shooters I know use it and having a "powder support group" is good for bouncing info back and forth. No horror stories with it.
Clays I have heard alot about both good and bad. One powder I have heard nothing but bad things is 700x. Too many other good powders to choose from.

 

[area51]

My statement for fastest powder was based on info from http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html an reloadersnest...