TheFederalistWeasel
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Vote with your wallet, let them know why! Write an Op/Ed piece, make a blog etc...
University revoking 2nd amendment rights off campus
- Thread starter Spartan452
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TimboKhan
Member
It's a nice idea, but ultimately probably pretty pointless, and likely to cause nothing but trouble for the students.
As stated, private universities are just that: Private. As such, they can make and enforce whatever regulations they see fit as a part of the culture of their school. Obviously, this doesn't extend to forcing someone to break the law, but it can and in this case evidently does require giving up some consitutional rights.
This sounds horrible, but really isn't as big a deal as you might think. In fact, THR is a perfect example of this concept. "Free Speech" isn't necessarily allowed here. In saying that, I am not being critical in any way, but it is true. This is a private board, and so if you put up a post filled with curse words and political diatribes, it is going to get locked and/or deleted. While you have the right to voice those opinions in other forums, by agreeing to the Terms of Service here at THR you are essentially agreeing to tow a particular line in terms of behavior and choice of topics. No one makes you post here, and so by agreeing to do so, you are also agreeing to abide by the rules of the board.
Such is the same at this university. By voluntarily attending this University, our pal here has agreed, however unknowingly, not to own firearms or shoot off bottle rockets. Why the university has this expectation of behavior, I have no idea, but they do. No one is forcing young Spartan to attend this university; indeed he probably pays more for the privilege of attending this university than he would a public university. In any event, when he enrolled, he agreed to follow this particular code of conduct.
Stupid, yes. Unconstitutional, no. Sex isn't illegal, and many parochial schools enforce a celibacy rule of some sort, and those schools haven't had any troubles enforcing those rules in court.
bigfatdave
Member
This advice is worth less than you paid for it:
Perhaps making the school look foolish publicly would make this problem go away. At least the possibility of doing that (meaning go to the media) might get the harassment to end. Of course, the hassle of making it a public issue may outweigh the gain, so weigh the options carefully.
Shadow 7D
Member
Why has no one suggested that he join an organizations with deep pockets and a good legal department, or get a relative that is a member involved, if the want to make a big deal, just mention that you will make a national media story out of it for them kicking a guy out for hunting with his father.... or do what some chic in new york did and sue them for tuition because the educations was worthless.
Cosmoline
Member
Why not?
Shadow 7D
Member
isthatajoke?
Member
There is nothing you can do. You voluntarily agreed to sign that contract, my friend. If you didn't like the regulation, you shouldn't have attended school there. Ya. That's why you're supposed to read things before you sign them. 
They are a private university. Game over.
It's just like if I told someone that I wouldn't be their friend if they ever bought a Toyota. Just because they have the right to own a Toyota under the law, doesn't mean I can't discriminate against people who own them. This is just one example of what's known as "Freedom of association."
So you are kind of in a tight spot. My suggestion? Just keep the guns anyway. If anyone ever breaks in and you shoot them, you're going to be really glad that you are getting kicked out of college rather than taken to the morgue.
They are a private university. Game over.It's just like if I told someone that I wouldn't be their friend if they ever bought a Toyota. Just because they have the right to own a Toyota under the law, doesn't mean I can't discriminate against people who own them. This is just one example of what's known as "Freedom of association."
So you are kind of in a tight spot. My suggestion? Just keep the guns anyway. If anyone ever breaks in and you shoot them, you're going to be really glad that you are getting kicked out of college rather than taken to the morgue.
coloradokevin
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I look at that as a poorly worded policy, and I doubt they ever intended to enforce it in the manner that you described. Even if they did choose to enforce their policy by taking the narrowest possible interpretation of the words, you still do not lose your 2nd Ammendment rights. In other words, the school has absolutely no ability to pursue criminal charges against you for owning a gun while off-campus. Perhaps they could expel you from the school, but that would be the single most extreme action they could take against you for having the gun while off-campus.
If I were you, I'd own your guns and just simply not worry about the policy. You won't be breaking any criminal laws in the process, and they will be none the wiser if you aren't doing anything stupid with the firearms! As a personal opinion here, I imagine that the policy was written the way it is primarily to prevent academic fraud... In other words, the school probably wants to be able to address cheating and other such illicit behavior when it occurs through the use of off-campus resources.
If I were you, I'd own your guns and just simply not worry about the policy. You won't be breaking any criminal laws in the process, and they will be none the wiser if you aren't doing anything stupid with the firearms! As a personal opinion here, I imagine that the policy was written the way it is primarily to prevent academic fraud... In other words, the school probably wants to be able to address cheating and other such illicit behavior when it occurs through the use of off-campus resources.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I guess you guys didn't read the thread. He's already said his friend is under investigation by the school for some firearm related photos on Facebook so clearly the rule is not a harmless mistake. He is in danger of losing a scholarship to the school over this.
Why you would assume it's harmless is beyond me. These things are rarely accidental or unintended.
Speedo66
Member
It seems schools can say what ever they want.
My daughter went to an Ivy League school, and I remember reading in the student handbook the criteria for sexual harassment: "if a female believes she has been sexually harassed, then she has been".
How's that for a vague, irrational definition? So no definate criteria, it's left up to each individual to decide, and the school will back it. A guy didn't stand a chance of refuting the charges.
The PC pendulum has swung so far as to be rediculous.
My daughter went to an Ivy League school, and I remember reading in the student handbook the criteria for sexual harassment: "if a female believes she has been sexually harassed, then she has been".
How's that for a vague, irrational definition? So no definate criteria, it's left up to each individual to decide, and the school will back it. A guy didn't stand a chance of refuting the charges.
The PC pendulum has swung so far as to be rediculous.
Deanimator
Member
Westminster? Went there in the '70s.
How much money will be flushed if you get the boot? Start excercising some opsec and don't worry about it.
You're not going to convince a bunch of liberals that guns are good...scrub your facebook account and anything else that could jeopardize your education. It may not be the answer you want to hear, but keeping your politics away from your wallet is a safe bet.
You're not going to convince a bunch of liberals that guns are good...scrub your facebook account and anything else that could jeopardize your education. It may not be the answer you want to hear, but keeping your politics away from your wallet is a safe bet.
Deanimator
Member
Westminster College, class of '80. There were more guns there when I was going than in some Caribbean countries. We used to go out to the clay pits outside of town to shoot all of the time (as did the local MOARNG MP unit). There used to be an indoor smallbore and pistol range in the basement, under the gym. Apparently it went away when ROTC bit the dust. There used to be a good little gunstore outside of town, where my best friend bought first his Browning High Power, then his H&K P9S-45. Midway and the Chapman Academy opened while I was going to Westminster.
My junior year, they got REALLY hard up for money and let in a bunch of thugs from rich families in MO, AR, and OK. Apparently they couldn't get in anywhere else. They were HEAVILY into drugs and thought they could run over everybody else. They learned that did NOT include country boys and innercity kids who weren't afraid of them in any way. The closest I've ever been to a gunfight was in the hallway of Weigle Hall one night when a bunch of fraternity pledges invaded the dorm to kick the crap out of the inept dope dealer who lived across the hall from me. He'd taken their money without delivering the product, having given that money upfront, sight unseen to a townie he'd never met. A bunch of us discretely armed ourselves and made it clear that we didn't care if they caught him on the street and killed him, but that they were NOT going to be allowed to commit acts of violence in the dorm (which we ran on a democratic basis). They trooped out and one of them (with a suspicious bulge under his jacket) suggested to one of his buddies that they come back and "kick our *****". That would have been an epic fail for them, on the order of the last fifteen minutes of "Taxi Driver".
A couple of (ironically) anti-gun types reported the incident to the school and the dope dealer, his dissatisfied customers and the dealer's wannabe "hitman" buddy were all expelled. This inspired the "hitman" to threaten to murder those of us who hadn't actually talked to the school at all. We did a survey of firearms and ammunition and cross leveled where necessary. We then went to the Fulton PD (who made "Reno 911" look like Delta Force). They told us that they couldn't do anything, but as soon as one of us were injured or killed, they'd spring into action. We went and talked to the Calloway County Sheriff, who told us essentially the same thing, but who also said that there was strong support in Missouri for the right of self-defense. We took the hint. That was all of the proof I've ever needed that police "protection" of individuals is at best a fairy tale, and at worst a despicable lie. I typed several term papers with my Ithaca Deer Slayer Police Special across my legs. Eventually "hitman" was given the Richard Boone speech from "Big Jake". He took the hint and departed at the end of term, never to be seen again.
I went back for a reunion a few years ago. A lot of the buildings had changed and there's a statue on the hill now that looks like the logos for Japan Airlines and Korean Airlines having sex. Apparently, they've straightened the place out quite a bit since I was there. They even have a president now who doesn't drive the local cable TV truck...
I spent 2 years at a private Christian university in Arkansas that prohibits sex out of wedlock, drinking (haha), and pretty much most other stuff you wouldn't be proud to mention on Sunday morning at church. Even if you're 400 miles from campus and somehow they find out you broke their rules, they could (and did) kick you out if they could prove it (obviously that part was generally difficult).
I agreed to go there, agreed to their rules, and agreed that they could kick me out if they caught me violating their rules. Their rules were pretty much in line with how I act anyway, so it wasn't some huge burden, and I did agree to them.
Aside from the obvious no weapons in the dorm rule, they didn't try to restrict guns in anyway (it was Arkansas, a huge % of students were hunters and fished).
If however they found out and could positively prove that I went home for the weekend to TN, got drunk, knocked up my gf, etc, they had no LEGAL teeth to do anything, all they could do is kick me out of school.
Point is, don't blur the lines between the LAW and the school's RULES.
PS +1 on this:
and sadly, when you get out of school, depending on who you work for and how you have your facebook privacy settings set up, you might want to just stay in the habit of keeping your online image very clean cut, possibly even gun free.
I agreed to go there, agreed to their rules, and agreed that they could kick me out if they caught me violating their rules. Their rules were pretty much in line with how I act anyway, so it wasn't some huge burden, and I did agree to them.
Aside from the obvious no weapons in the dorm rule, they didn't try to restrict guns in anyway (it was Arkansas, a huge % of students were hunters and fished).
If however they found out and could positively prove that I went home for the weekend to TN, got drunk, knocked up my gf, etc, they had no LEGAL teeth to do anything, all they could do is kick me out of school.
Point is, don't blur the lines between the LAW and the school's RULES.
PS +1 on this:
and sadly, when you get out of school, depending on who you work for and how you have your facebook privacy settings set up, you might want to just stay in the habit of keeping your online image very clean cut, possibly even gun free.
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scurtis_34471
Member
Given that the school cannot search your off-campus housing, I don't really see what they can realistically do about it.
FIVETWOSEVEN
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theres one christian college in virgina, liberety college (i believe) that allows you to have firearms on the college just locked up with campus police and you can take those guns out and go to the shooting range on campus. I couldn't go to a college or university that prohibts the use of firearms.
It says that the university "reserves the right" to do that.
That means they might (try to) throw someone out of school for doing something off-campus that they consider poses a threat.
The likelihood of them throwing you out of school for having a gun in your off-campus residence, going target shooting legally, hunting, etc.? ZERO.
The chances of their throwing you out of school for brandishing a firearm at a frat party that's not on campus property? Close to 100%.
I seriously wouldn't sweat this. They want to cover their asses.
Fireworks? Please. They're not going to bust you for having a legal 4th of July party off-campus somewhere.
A lot of schools have campus-affiliated activities happening off-campus. This rule just says that you can't expect to flagrantly violate campus rules across the street without any repercussions.
Rules are made to be broken, but even so, I wouldn't worry about this one.
That means they might (try to) throw someone out of school for doing something off-campus that they consider poses a threat.
The likelihood of them throwing you out of school for having a gun in your off-campus residence, going target shooting legally, hunting, etc.? ZERO.
The chances of their throwing you out of school for brandishing a firearm at a frat party that's not on campus property? Close to 100%.
I seriously wouldn't sweat this. They want to cover their asses.
Fireworks? Please. They're not going to bust you for having a legal 4th of July party off-campus somewhere.
A lot of schools have campus-affiliated activities happening off-campus. This rule just says that you can't expect to flagrantly violate campus rules across the street without any repercussions.
Rules are made to be broken, but even so, I wouldn't worry about this one.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Again, read the whole thread. The school has already done it and they are attempting to revoke a scholarship over this.
This is not theoretical.
From the OP's post #20:
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
The worthless media would probably side with the school....
I have no faith left in that bunch.
You are right, nothing is free
Best thing to do would likely be apologize and grovel and walk the straight and narrow til graduation.
Being a gun owner isn't a protected class. This is a variant of the famous debate whether an employer can control your gun toting.
Unless explicit legislation prevents such private institutions from making such rules, you need to move schools.
The opposition for such legislation is couched in terms of 'property' rights but really is cover for liability fiends.
Unless explicit legislation prevents such private institutions from making such rules, you need to move schools.
The opposition for such legislation is couched in terms of 'property' rights but really is cover for liability fiends.
DHJenkins
Member
The university's policies are just as enforceable (by them) as a morality clause in an employment contract.
The problem is, when you enrolled, you probably signed something to the affect of "I have read and understood all of rules and regulations and agree to abide by them or face disciplinary action"; this gives them legal grounds to kick you out if you break the rules - and I'm assuming they don't give refunds on tuition.
Umm...who do you think told them they could have these kind of rules in the first place and drew up the language necessary to enforce them? And who's going to have the 'better' lawyer? I private college or a student?
According to the language in the handbook, your friend's only possible way out is to claim the weapon in the photograph was an airsoft replica, and therefore not a weapon - only a replica of one.
The problem is, when you enrolled, you probably signed something to the affect of "I have read and understood all of rules and regulations and agree to abide by them or face disciplinary action"; this gives them legal grounds to kick you out if you break the rules - and I'm assuming they don't give refunds on tuition.
Umm...who do you think told them they could have these kind of rules in the first place and drew up the language necessary to enforce them? And who's going to have the 'better' lawyer? I private college or a student?
According to the language in the handbook, your friend's only possible way out is to claim the weapon in the photograph was an airsoft replica, and therefore not a weapon - only a replica of one.
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