Bobson
Member
Well put, Sol. Agreed with just about everything you said. I do think Cooper's colors are beneficial, but neither do I bear them in mind on a regular basis.
Unknown Person Trying To Get In Your Bubble
- Thread starter Trunk Monkey
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Jeremiah10:23
Member
aarondhgraham said
In fact, he's the one who came up with this debatable color coding system,,,
Which by the way does nothing to enhance ones awareness,,,
It simply codifies a common terminology,,,
So it's easier to discuss.
I disagree with this to certain degree in that when I think of the "color codes" it reminds me to be more vigilant than I sometimes am. If we occasionally ask ourselves what level we are at we almost unconsciously begin to be more aware of our surroundings.
In fact, he's the one who came up with this debatable color coding system,,,
Which by the way does nothing to enhance ones awareness,,,
It simply codifies a common terminology,,,
So it's easier to discuss.
I disagree with this to certain degree in that when I think of the "color codes" it reminds me to be more vigilant than I sometimes am. If we occasionally ask ourselves what level we are at we almost unconsciously begin to be more aware of our surroundings.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Trunk Monkey, if we never talked to those we don't know and followed our mother's beware of strangers advice all our lives we'd never make friends. Parents tell children that because children, especially young children, can't detect evil intentions. They aren't mature enough to recognize it yet. Until they can, we tell them to beware of strangers.
Yet children still get molested by family friends, and sometimes even family. No advice works all the time.
But you're an adult. You should have formed enough experience at this point in your life to distinguish between reasonable social interaction - even with strangers - from suspicious interaction and stop following the advice parents give 5 year olds.
There is a question here that I'll try answer -
Let's remove some of the charged words from your question.
random people; go out of their way; and enter your bubble
You described two scenarios - ones in church. People in your congregation aren't exactly strangers. Women ask each other about purses and clothing all the time. I've been struck by a coat, tie, yes sometimes shoes, whatever, and asked someone where he got them before. Pretty normal behavior for a somewhat homogenous social group gathering for the same purpose - in other words a congregation attending a church service.
So when you said,
Yeah, you probably over-reacted. A startle response is normal when you get tapped on the shoulder without realizing someone is behind you. Staying in high alert the whole conversation is not. Not in that setting. Not in those circumstances. And if other people you know and who were there are telling you the same thing, that's a pretty strong clue.
The other -
Let me see if I get this right. After church service was over someone else in the congregation shook your hand and wished you God's blessing? Still inside the church? And you find that odd, inappropriate, and possibly even threatening behavior, at church?
I'm not sure what to say to that, other than to ask if you've even been diagnosed with some social or psychological disorder.
Yes, I approach strangers and "get inside their bubble" all the time.
And on, and on. And when such interactions happen with me, I consider the totality of the circumstances. Most every single social interaction we have every day of our lives is not a cause to go into orange and treat it as if it were a prelude to a crime.
And, most every single social interaction that was, the victim often later relates (if he or she can), "You know, something didn't feel right about that the whole time, but by the time I decided to leave it was too late." Most people know when something is just not right, the behavior was out of place for the circumstances or whatever, but refuse to acknowledge the danger and they talk themselves out of doing something that would be construed as rude to end the encounter and get away.
So, assuming you have reasonably developed social skills, you know when something's off. Most of us do. The real key is not knowing; it's not talking yourself out of doing something rude when you do know.
Now the answer to your initial question, without the charged words -
Generally I smile, focus my attention on whatever needs focused on, and make a quick decision of whether I'll be engaging and polite, or disengaging and polite, and see where it goes from there. That's life.
BTW, LemmyCaution's post #22 is quite educational and descriptive of normal social interaction, and suspicious interaction.
Yet children still get molested by family friends, and sometimes even family. No advice works all the time.
But you're an adult. You should have formed enough experience at this point in your life to distinguish between reasonable social interaction - even with strangers - from suspicious interaction and stop following the advice parents give 5 year olds.
There is a question here that I'll try answer -
Trunk Monkey said:
Let's remove some of the charged words from your question.
random people; go out of their way; and enter your bubble
You described two scenarios - ones in church. People in your congregation aren't exactly strangers. Women ask each other about purses and clothing all the time. I've been struck by a coat, tie, yes sometimes shoes, whatever, and asked someone where he got them before. Pretty normal behavior for a somewhat homogenous social group gathering for the same purpose - in other words a congregation attending a church service.
So when you said,
Last weekend someone I didn’t know approached me in church to ask me a question about my shoes.
It was during the worship service which is about as close as I get to “Condition White” in public and I didn’t even know he was there until he tapped me.
Apparently he had seen me walking to the bathroom while he was sitting in the foyer and had followed me into the family sanctuary to ask about my shoes.
I went straight to Orange as soon as he touched me I asked him if I could help him and he asked me where I got my shoes. I’ve had people tell me that I over reacted and I don’t think I did.
I didn’t blade up on the guy I didn’t raise my voice I just focused on the guy, watched his hands, started trying to read his visual cues.
It was during the worship service which is about as close as I get to “Condition White” in public and I didn’t even know he was there until he tapped me.
Apparently he had seen me walking to the bathroom while he was sitting in the foyer and had followed me into the family sanctuary to ask about my shoes.
I went straight to Orange as soon as he touched me I asked him if I could help him and he asked me where I got my shoes. I’ve had people tell me that I over reacted and I don’t think I did.
I didn’t blade up on the guy I didn’t raise my voice I just focused on the guy, watched his hands, started trying to read his visual cues.
Yeah, you probably over-reacted. A startle response is normal when you get tapped on the shoulder without realizing someone is behind you. Staying in high alert the whole conversation is not. Not in that setting. Not in those circumstances. And if other people you know and who were there are telling you the same thing, that's a pretty strong clue.
The other -
I guess it was my weekend because after church I was waiting for my wife at the elevator and someone I've never seen before stepped off the elevator, walked right up to me and stuck his hand out and wished me "God Bless you sir." I saw him coming and had to change gears in my brain a little to respond appropriately
Because that’s who I am I think twice before approach another person in public and I make damn sure I announce myself before entering their space. (I personally think that approaching someone like that during worship is never appropriate but that’s a different topic) Clearly this guy never even thought about it.
Because that’s who I am I think twice before approach another person in public and I make damn sure I announce myself before entering their space. (I personally think that approaching someone like that during worship is never appropriate but that’s a different topic) Clearly this guy never even thought about it.
Let me see if I get this right. After church service was over someone else in the congregation shook your hand and wished you God's blessing? Still inside the church? And you find that odd, inappropriate, and possibly even threatening behavior, at church?
I'm not sure what to say to that, other than to ask if you've even been diagnosed with some social or psychological disorder.
Yes, I approach strangers and "get inside their bubble" all the time.
- At the movies in a long line, "Hey, did I just hear them tell you Alice in Wonderland is sold out?"
- Waiting to be seated in a restaraunt I've never been in, "Have you eaten here before?", handing over an open menu, "What do you recommend we try off the menu?"
- Busy, harried mother of 4 drops something on the way into the grocery store, "Pardon me ma'am, but you dropped this is the parking lot. I tried to get your attention but your young one was too loud and you couldn't hear me."
And on, and on. And when such interactions happen with me, I consider the totality of the circumstances. Most every single social interaction we have every day of our lives is not a cause to go into orange and treat it as if it were a prelude to a crime.
And, most every single social interaction that was, the victim often later relates (if he or she can), "You know, something didn't feel right about that the whole time, but by the time I decided to leave it was too late." Most people know when something is just not right, the behavior was out of place for the circumstances or whatever, but refuse to acknowledge the danger and they talk themselves out of doing something that would be construed as rude to end the encounter and get away.
So, assuming you have reasonably developed social skills, you know when something's off. Most of us do. The real key is not knowing; it's not talking yourself out of doing something rude when you do know.
Now the answer to your initial question, without the charged words -
How do you react when people you don't know approach you in public?
Generally I smile, focus my attention on whatever needs focused on, and make a quick decision of whether I'll be engaging and polite, or disengaging and polite, and see where it goes from there. That's life.
BTW, LemmyCaution's post #22 is quite educational and descriptive of normal social interaction, and suspicious interaction.
OP
OP
Trunk Monkey
member
I think I assumed a lot in my OP so I want to clarify my position.
For whatever reason my norm is that if I don’t know you and you seem overly interested in me in particular it tends to cause me to heighten my awareness; it doesn’t mean I draw my weapon, assume a modified weaver and order you to the floor.
It means I start looking for other indicators. Are you trying to get too close to me? What’s in your hands? Are you older (like maybe your generation is a little more outgoing than mine)? Are you younger and dressed like a gangbanger? Was whatever you said your opening to pan handle me or try to get me to buy weed or Amway or whatever?
Like the color code definition says I pay more attention to you and evaluate if you are a threat or just someone who doesn’t have the same social training I have. If you aren’t a threat I ease back down the scale if you are I start going up the scale. (Remember the lady got me all the way to her car before the threat became evident)
However if you do something that majorly crosses the line I go up the scale a lot quicker (Example: the guy that ran up to some random stranger in Wal Mart to complement him on his commitment to RKBA).
A better example might be something I’ve done a time or two when I’ve been out and about and noticed someone’s fly happened to be open. The last time it happened I walked up to the man (whom I didn’t know and who didn’t know me and knew he didn’t know me.) Stuck my hand out and said “Hey guy, it’s been a while how are you doing” then leaned into the hand shake and whispered “Excuse me sir but your fly is open.”
I watched the guy’s initial reaction to my approach, I saw his mind trying to process who is this person and why is he so interested in getting next to me? There is no way in the world you can tell me that my approach (prior to my explanation of why I approached him) was something he considered normal and he did appear to get defensive. ETA I also think it's worth mentioning that even thought he was not comfortable with my approach he allowed it because (I assume) he didn't know what else to do IOW he hadn't thought out his reaction prior to the event
This indicates to me that I’m not the only anti social bastard on the planet who puts the shields up as soon as someone crosses my boundaries
For whatever reason my norm is that if I don’t know you and you seem overly interested in me in particular it tends to cause me to heighten my awareness; it doesn’t mean I draw my weapon, assume a modified weaver and order you to the floor.
It means I start looking for other indicators. Are you trying to get too close to me? What’s in your hands? Are you older (like maybe your generation is a little more outgoing than mine)? Are you younger and dressed like a gangbanger? Was whatever you said your opening to pan handle me or try to get me to buy weed or Amway or whatever?
Like the color code definition says I pay more attention to you and evaluate if you are a threat or just someone who doesn’t have the same social training I have. If you aren’t a threat I ease back down the scale if you are I start going up the scale. (Remember the lady got me all the way to her car before the threat became evident)
However if you do something that majorly crosses the line I go up the scale a lot quicker (Example: the guy that ran up to some random stranger in Wal Mart to complement him on his commitment to RKBA).
A better example might be something I’ve done a time or two when I’ve been out and about and noticed someone’s fly happened to be open. The last time it happened I walked up to the man (whom I didn’t know and who didn’t know me and knew he didn’t know me.) Stuck my hand out and said “Hey guy, it’s been a while how are you doing” then leaned into the hand shake and whispered “Excuse me sir but your fly is open.”
I watched the guy’s initial reaction to my approach, I saw his mind trying to process who is this person and why is he so interested in getting next to me? There is no way in the world you can tell me that my approach (prior to my explanation of why I approached him) was something he considered normal and he did appear to get defensive. ETA I also think it's worth mentioning that even thought he was not comfortable with my approach he allowed it because (I assume) he didn't know what else to do IOW he hadn't thought out his reaction prior to the event
This indicates to me that I’m not the only anti social bastard on the planet who puts the shields up as soon as someone crosses my boundaries
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BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Trunk Monkey said:
Ok, then what does it mean that you do? Because doing this under all but very limited circumstances is not an option. Unjustified it's a felony charge. And being uncomfortable with a panhandler or what you might consider undue attention is unjustified.
So, how do you handle a panhandler who asks you for spare change?
How do you handle it when someone, "majorly crosses the line I go up the scale a lot quicker"? What exactly does that mean in terms of what you do?
What's your in-between? Simply studying someone's hands and getting all tense is not really going to alter someone's behavior who is about to do a bad deed. It will make decent people think there's something wrong with you, like, "Is he paranoid and a meth head?" And truly bad people aren't impressed.
I've seen that response when I did FoF training as the criminal actor. You may think it makes you look like a cat ready to pounce and warn someone off. Know what that made me do? It made me emboldened. Want to know why? It makes you look uncomfortable, nervous, and scared.
And I'm not suggesting healthy boundaries are a bad thing. Not at all. I am suggesting your boundaries border on paranoia. And if the others in your life are telling you that your reactions in normal, non-threatening interactions are over the top, from what you're relating here so far I believe they're right.
OP
OP
Trunk Monkey
member
BullFrog Ken said:
Fairly clear indicator that you din't read the actual words that I wrote because I quite clearly said
Trunk Monkey said:
Bullfrog ken said:
Walk right by him like he isn't there, maybe say I can't help you
Bullfrog Ken said:
It's all about context (which you admittedly didn't have) in the example I was given the person was open carrying and minding his own business in a Wal Mart when (according to him) someone literally ran up on him in the store and started talking about his weapon and wanted to show theirs. How would you have reacted?
Bull frog Ken said:
again
Trunk Monkey said:
Bottom line if you want to hide behind you moderator status to insult me you can and I can't do a damn thing about it but I'm not going to keep trying to justify myself to you
good day
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Look, most folks would have (if they had felt any need at all to post about this) said something along the lines of, "Yesterday was odd. Two different church brothers surprised me by coming up and being much friendlier and interested in me than I'm used to. So what do you ... <Insert question here>?"
Not talked about switching to condition orange on the guys who got inside "your bubble" ... by acting exactly like church types do in the millions every Sunday morning.
[To be honest, maybe this really got exploded by starting out as another discussion on open carry and the two church guys were a wholly unimportant side discussion...I'm not sure.]
But as the church guys and your reactions to them became the focus of the thread, in that spotlight, you having any discomfort or lingering doubts or discomfort about how those interactions went down does seem odd. As in, unable to properly incorporate context/setting into risk and threat calculations, in ways that normal people do without even thinking about it.
There are certain conditions (forms of autism, forms of psychological or brain trauma, etc.) which can make it difficult for some people to negotiate social encounters like this without panic, fear, alarm, rage, or even mild discomfort. No one can really speak authoritatively on how those matters may be at play here based on a few internet postings. But any history at all with those types of factors could indeed help explain a "condition orange" response to a church brother wishing you the blessings of your savior or complimenting your shoes.
(Don't shoot the messenger. We're all here to share and try to help.)
[Edit to add:]
Another possibility is somewhat the opposite problem. That is, having read the Cooper Color Code and tried to internalize it and practice it religiously, to the extent that you think reacting with "Orange" to a church brother's blessing is what the good Colonel would have wanted you to do. If that's the case, maybe this is more of a discretionary problem -- not a pathological one -- and we can simply advise you to make a voluntary adjustment in your "squelch" knob. In other words, mellow a bit there, brother.
But right now we don't know if you're reacting voluntarily or involuntarily so our suggestions might be based on bad assumptions.
Not talked about switching to condition orange on the guys who got inside "your bubble" ... by acting exactly like church types do in the millions every Sunday morning.
[To be honest, maybe this really got exploded by starting out as another discussion on open carry and the two church guys were a wholly unimportant side discussion...I'm not sure.]
But as the church guys and your reactions to them became the focus of the thread, in that spotlight, you having any discomfort or lingering doubts or discomfort about how those interactions went down does seem odd. As in, unable to properly incorporate context/setting into risk and threat calculations, in ways that normal people do without even thinking about it.
There are certain conditions (forms of autism, forms of psychological or brain trauma, etc.) which can make it difficult for some people to negotiate social encounters like this without panic, fear, alarm, rage, or even mild discomfort. No one can really speak authoritatively on how those matters may be at play here based on a few internet postings. But any history at all with those types of factors could indeed help explain a "condition orange" response to a church brother wishing you the blessings of your savior or complimenting your shoes.
(Don't shoot the messenger. We're all here to share and try to help.)
[Edit to add:]
Another possibility is somewhat the opposite problem. That is, having read the Cooper Color Code and tried to internalize it and practice it religiously, to the extent that you think reacting with "Orange" to a church brother's blessing is what the good Colonel would have wanted you to do. If that's the case, maybe this is more of a discretionary problem -- not a pathological one -- and we can simply advise you to make a voluntary adjustment in your "squelch" knob. In other words, mellow a bit there, brother.
But right now we don't know if you're reacting voluntarily or involuntarily so our suggestions might be based on bad assumptions.
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Deltaboy1984
Member
I am more cautious post accident 2006 because I am not as capable of fighting as I was before the accident. I am in full blown cheat to win anymore. I keep my phone put up , I look around and keep paying attention to where I am and where I go. Finally I am not out much after 10pm anymore . My biggest issue is people crowding me in the checkout line. I have told some people to PLEASE BACK UP.
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It is true that some people just don't get the idea of personal space. I recently retired after 22 years as a street cop. I was always in uniform, the gun, the gun belt, radio, name tag, and badge, oh yeah once in a while I actually wore my issued Police hat. I found out people either want to be near you or will run from you, sorta depended on them and the circumstances. I have been retired for over 5 years and I soooo love not being noticed. I always carry, but it is concealed and I just stay under the radar for 98% to 99% of the everyday people. The other 1% or 2% do know me, my friends walk up to me, the guys I had unpleasant dealings with usually just give me a dirty look and move on. I believe if one is armed one has a duty to be aware of your surroundings. Life is short and I hope to die of old age, we'll see.... Be safe and be aware, you can sleep when you get home. I refuse to open carry but that is just me, after 22 years of what I guess could be called open carry, in Police uniform, it is just not a novelty to me.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Trunk Monkey said:
I read exactly what you said.
You told me what you were/are thinking.
That doesn't describe actions beyond where your eyes are looking, or a tensed-up body language.
Or what you say to communicate your high level of discomfort.
Again, you need to have some in-between, some escalation. It just can't start at shouting, "Gimme three feet!" as you shove the dude with your hand.
Don't mean to be insulting, but your behavior is not normal. You need to have the ability to pick up on basic social cues and determine innocent, everyday social behavior for what it is. You made the decision to carry a gun; you don't have a choice as a result of that decision.
Going to orange on people in your congregation on Sunday morning is a gross over-reaction.
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I saw this thread yesterday and thought it was over after the second post. Since it seems to have so staying power, let me comment on some trends I'm seeing
As a qualifier, let me share that I retired from LE after 28 years, have a heightened awareness of my surroundings, and have been trained in Peer Support. I've listened to a lot of co-workers going through different stress and none would have reacted in the manner you have described
You're wrong, it is an overreaction in general and specifically in the cases you've describedTrunk Monkey said:
That is a social childhood norm, it is usually something most folks mature beyond in their early teen years
This incident may have had a larger impact on your world view then you may be aware of. If you were a personal friend who had this experience and was currently exhibiting the behavior and rationalization you've described, I'd suggest they consult with a metal health professional.
The setting is everything and you wanted to take his weapon hand...his reaction was normal. Plus starting an encounter with deceit isn't usually the best choice
As a qualifier, let me share that I retired from LE after 28 years, have a heightened awareness of my surroundings, and have been trained in Peer Support. I've listened to a lot of co-workers going through different stress and none would have reacted in the manner you have described
OptimusPrime
Member
A lot of true stuff about cultures and personal space and that makes all the difference.
I was sitting in a hotel courtyard with my family about a month ago, sitting down to our pizza delivery dinner. When out of the blue this older gentleman came striding up and plopped himself down at our table. He was.....different.....but I didn't know how. At first I thought how odd because we are a family of six and were obviously taking up the whole table, so he couldn't have thought that we had room. We were in NY and so I was not carrying (which I immediately said a silent curse about), and he sat on the opposite side from me, meaning the table was between he and I. Meaning, he was closer to my daughters than I was. Meaning, this cat was on a short leash.
Turns out he was a tourist from Finland who had just gotten off the plane and he couldn't WAIT to find a real-live American to talk to. I mean "at". Old boy started spouting off some words that im sure he thought was English, smiled a lot, and then left us to our dinner.
The whole interaction couldn't have been more than 2 minutes, and the whole time I was on edge and wondering what this "obviously evil and crazy man" was plotting to do to me and mine. Turns out he was Finnish. Huh. I wished him pleasant travels and enjoy America.
Sometimes just taking a minute to sort something out is what we have to do. Sometimes that guy getting up in your bubble is just a visitor and that's how he does it in the Old Country.
I was sitting in a hotel courtyard with my family about a month ago, sitting down to our pizza delivery dinner. When out of the blue this older gentleman came striding up and plopped himself down at our table. He was.....different.....but I didn't know how. At first I thought how odd because we are a family of six and were obviously taking up the whole table, so he couldn't have thought that we had room. We were in NY and so I was not carrying (which I immediately said a silent curse about), and he sat on the opposite side from me, meaning the table was between he and I. Meaning, he was closer to my daughters than I was. Meaning, this cat was on a short leash.
Turns out he was a tourist from Finland who had just gotten off the plane and he couldn't WAIT to find a real-live American to talk to. I mean "at". Old boy started spouting off some words that im sure he thought was English, smiled a lot, and then left us to our dinner.
The whole interaction couldn't have been more than 2 minutes, and the whole time I was on edge and wondering what this "obviously evil and crazy man" was plotting to do to me and mine. Turns out he was Finnish. Huh. I wished him pleasant travels and enjoy America.
Sometimes just taking a minute to sort something out is what we have to do. Sometimes that guy getting up in your bubble is just a visitor and that's how he does it in the Old Country.
OP
OP
Trunk Monkey
member
I'm sorry. Clearly I can't communicate what I'm trying to communicate. Maybe the mods should just lock this one
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Done...
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, that's certainly one way to answer the points made, but I'd suggest that you've gotten a fair number of the active Staff engaged at this point (and I'd venture to say a couple others observing without public comment) and they're all picking up on something that you maybe ... just maybe (we're all pals, here, remember?) ... need to think hard about.
Going back a few months you posted a thread with very similar statements about dealing with your church mates. There were some gauges twitching then, and they're twitching again now for the same reasons.
You are choosing to carry a gun in very dense and engaged public places. That situation calls for very highly, and very properly aligned, functional social skills that will help you navigate the sea of public without stress and without false hits spiking your warning system.
Maybe this is happening because you need to get your head in a better place. Maybe this is happening because you're working at being the ever-vigilant "sheepdog" and staying keyed-up is part of the persona you've deliberately constructed. We can't know which. But you should figure out what's going on. You owe that to yourself and those around you who care for your happiness.
[EDIT: Sorry Fred, didn't see your closing note until I posted.]
Going back a few months you posted a thread with very similar statements about dealing with your church mates. There were some gauges twitching then, and they're twitching again now for the same reasons.
You are choosing to carry a gun in very dense and engaged public places. That situation calls for very highly, and very properly aligned, functional social skills that will help you navigate the sea of public without stress and without false hits spiking your warning system.
Maybe this is happening because you need to get your head in a better place. Maybe this is happening because you're working at being the ever-vigilant "sheepdog" and staying keyed-up is part of the persona you've deliberately constructed. We can't know which. But you should figure out what's going on. You owe that to yourself and those around you who care for your happiness.
[EDIT: Sorry Fred, didn't see your closing note until I posted.]
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