Unsafe to carry a 1917 S&W fully loaded?

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FIVETWOSEVEN

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I was at a gunstore today and handled a 1917 S&W and I noticed that the firing pin was fully extended with the hammer down. Is that normal for this revolver? Other pictures I see of this revolver don't show the firing pin with the hammer at rest.
 
No, it is not normal.

The hammer should rebound slightly when the trigger is released and the rebound slide goes under the hammer to block it.

If the firing pin was protruding through the recoil shield with the trigger at rest, there is something very wrong with it.

rc
 
OP, seems like a very good opportunity to haggle a very steep discount on that one. Explain the issue to them and throw in a little tidbit about how somebody could get killed if that gunstore sold it like it is.

Then tell them you can relieve them of the burden :D
 
It was priced mid $500. The front sight is another modified. It's a large gunstore/outfitter so I'm not sure if I have much room for haggling but It might be worth it.

Edit: I'll also add that this gun locks up tighter than most new Smith and Wessons I've handled.
 
No that isn't normal, and I would think the pin would interfere with closing a loaded cylinder in it's current condition.

I see old Smith top breaks with that issue advertised on Gunbroker from time to time, and the sellers seem oblivious to the problem as it is never mentioned.

I wouldn't buy it for that price.

RC is that a factor of the trigger return spring needing replacement?
 
What is the usual fix for these and what should I offer? I think it's a good candidate for a project gun.
 
I haven't had a project gun in a long time and I've always wanted a 1917. If they can lower the price I might just buy it.
 
S&w 1917

Best wishes on what you decide to do.
If you don't want the gun, I would appreciate the name, address, and phone # of the store.
Either way, I'd be happy.:)
 
The Model 1917 has a rebound slide which retracts the firing pin (hammer) when the trigger is released. But they do NOT have a hammer block safety so should never be carried with a live round under the hammer.

A rebounding hammer in a side swing revolver is necessary since the cylinder can't be opened with the firing pin buried in a primer. That revolver is either badly worn, or parts are broken/missing. Unless the price is very low, AND you can find someone to repair it or you can repair it yourself, walk away, whistling.

Jim
 
I was at a gunstore today and handled a 1917 S&W and I noticed that the firing pin was fully extended with the hammer down. Is that normal for this revolver?
No, it is not normal. That gun needs the attention of a good pistolsmith.

The good news is, as others have pointed out, you can tell the shopkeeper the gun is broken and offer to buy it for parts.
 
RC is that a factor of the trigger return spring needing replacement?
It could be, but I doubt it.

If the trigger returns forward at all, the hammer has to rebound enough for the rebound slide to slide under it and block it.

It's just not possible for the firing pin to stick out if the trigger is foreward.

I think something more serious is at work.

Could be:
1. Broken rebound slide.
2. Bubba ground the hammer block off the bottom of the hammer.
3. Broken hammer stud in the frame, allowing it to move up off the rebound slide.

That's the top three I can think of right off hand.

Of course it's possible the rebound slide is just glued tight with 100 year old grease?
But again, the trigger would not return back foreword at all if that were the case.

rc
 
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The trigger was still fully functional both in single and double. It didn't feel unusual at all. I'm going to try and negotiate this weekend.
 
The gun is no longer listed on their website so it looks like it already sold. Maybe next time a 1917 will enter my collection. :)
 
None of mine do that. Try to get a big price break and see if it can be fixed. Note: parts are difficult to find.
 
In military service the 1917 would have been carried with six cartridges (two half moon clips) even though the gun didn't have a hammer block safety.
 
Well the gun ended up getting sold a few weeks ago and then reappeared last night. I talked to them and point out the issue and asked if they would take money off. They said they don't sell broken guns to customers but only to gunsmith as a "Gunsmith special" and they took the gun off of display. I guess my search for a shooter 1917 continues.
 
Well the gun ended up getting sold a few weeks ago and then reappeared last night. I talked to them and point out the issue and asked if they would take money off. They said they don't sell broken guns to customers but only to gunsmith as a "Gunsmith special" and they took the gun off of display. I guess my search for a shooter 1917 continues.
Thanks for the update!

You might have saved someone injury or worse, you never know.
 
mixed blessing

While it is always sad to hear of another fine revolver slipping away, take solace in that it could have been a very expensive/dangerously annoying project. Keep in mind that a collector grade specimen (Colt OR Smith) 1917 is now north of $1200.

Prices will only climb higher as more S&W, Colt, WWI and militaria collectors vie for what is a gap filling, niche gun. I own a Colt 1917 strictly b/c it's the token New Service item in my collection. Need a Colt Commando, and nicer 1911A1 specimen to make my kit complete (gave up on an Ainsworth long ago) :D
 
Are the Colts valued significantly higher than Smiths? One of my favorite shops has a Colt 1917 for over $1,200 but I've never seen a S&W 1917 higher than $1,000 that I can accurately remember.
 
Are the Colts valued significantly higher than Smiths? One of my favorite shops has a Colt 1917 for over $1,200 but I've never seen a S&W 1917 higher than $1,000 that I can accurately remember.
Yes and No. It depends on three very important things: Condition, condition, condition!

For example the below link shows a Smith 1917 in worse shape than my Colt, yet the price is $1700...

http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...on-1917-u-s-army-45-cal-.cfm?gun_id=100577650

FWIW, I'd value the above piece (in link) at $1100 flat and not a penny more. But that's me and I'm a Colt guy.
;)
 
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Howdy

Picture is worth a thousand words department:

Here is a photo of the interior of a 44 Handejector 4th model. Although not the same model as the Model 1917, this photo illustrates the way all S&W revolvers have retracted the firing pin ever since 1905.

This is the normal 'at rest' position of all the parts on the inside of a Smith. The two arrows at the bottom are pointing to the hump at the top of the rebound slide and the hump at the bottom of the hammer. The spring inside the rebound slide has pushed it and the trigger forward, and its hump has wedged the hammer back, withdrawing the firing pin into the frame. The arrow at the top shows the gap between the hammer and the frame. The long slanted piece is the modern hammer block incorporated in all Smiths ever since WWII. Notice the hammer is not actually touching the hammer block, the block is redundant and is a fail safe part. If the gun were to fall onto its hammer spur, and if the hump at the bottom of the hammer should shear off, or if the stud the hammer rotates on is bent or broken, the hammer block will prevent the hammer from moving forward enough to allow the firing pin to contact a primer.

44%20hand%20ejector%204th%20model%20hammer%20block%20with%20arrows_zpsfnytav6r.jpg





In this photo I am holding the trigger back as if the gun has just discharged. I have removed the hammer block for clarity. In this view, the small swivel bar of the trigger has forced the rebound slide back and the hump at its top is no longer in contact with the hump at the bottom of the hammer. The hammer spring has pushed the hammer all the way forward, with it coming to rest against the frame. The firing pin is protruding through the frame and if there were a live cartridge under it the primer would have fired. If the hammer block were in position the pin in the rebound slide would have pulled it diagonally down its slot in the side plate and it would be clear of the hammer.

44%20hand%20ejector%204th%20model%20trigger%20back_zpsrktihx7y.jpg

Although the parts inside a Model 1917 are shaped slightly differently, the principle is the same, and this sequence happens every time the trigger is pulled in a Smith, either double action or single action. With the Model 1917 in question it is impossible to determine exactly what is wrong without removing the side plate for a look see, but the likely culprits are a broken hammer 'hump', or an altered rebound slide. If the stud the hammer rotates on is broken I doubt the hammer would be able to rotate properly, but I suppose it is a possibility.


*****



Regarding the safety of carrying a S&W fully loaded with six rounds:

The modern design with the modern hammer block is absolutely safe to carry fully loaded.


This photo shows an earlier style of hammer block. It is a piece of spring steel peened in place in a slot in the side plate. At its top is a right angle extension that blocks the hammer the same way the newer design does. With this design, the 'at rest' position of the hammer block kept the right angle tab in position, blocking the hammer. The arrow points to a tab on the hammer block, and the other arrow points to a ramp on the pawl. When the trigger was pulled or pushed back by the rebound slide, the ramp on the rising pawl engaged the tab on the hammer block, flexing it and withdrawing it into its slot, creating clearance for the hammer to fall all the way. Even though this design was inside S&W revolvers for decades, eventually it was determined that improperly removed heavy grease or cosmoline, could cause the hammer block to remain in the withdrawn position, allowing the gun to discharge if the hammer spur received a heavy blow.


triggerandsideplatewitharrows.jpg



The Model 1917 was built before there was any hammer block at all in S&W revolvers. It was believed at that time that the rebounding nature of the hammer was enough to keep the gun from firing if the hammer spur received a heavy blow.



I hasten to add that like most early 20th Century double action revolver designs, even without a hammer block the rebounding hammer of the S&W Handejectors was still far safer than the designs of the old single action revolvers of the 19th Century. Here are the parts of the lockwork of a Colt Single Action Army. The two arrows point to the tip of the sear on the trigger and the so called 'safety notch' on the hammer. Notice how thin the parts are. Dropping the gun on the hammer spur was almost guaranteed to shear off either the sear or the overhanging lip of the 'safety' notch, causing the revolver to discharge. This was a well known fact and anybody who regularly used a Colt knew to always keep an empty chamber under the hammer. In contrast, failures with the S&W design were very rare. It was the accidental death of a sailor from the discharge of a S&W dropped from the superstructure of a warship that caused Smith to come up with the modern hammer block design.

Regarding fully loading the Model 1917 on the battlefield, as John Wayne once said, 'if you think you are going to need all six, then load all six'.

interiorpartswitharrows.jpg
 
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