Realistic Self-Defense Situation & Failing the Victim Interview

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TheProf

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How would a real self-defense situation materialize? I mean, we all have our preconceived notions of "what's its supposed to be like".

In the movies, we see the good guy getting plenty of warning... He is surrounded by 5 guys at a distance, making their intentions clear. A gun battle breaks out and the good guy wins.

But...after much soul searching... I think it may be like the following:

1. SCENARIO ONE: "SLOW GRAY ZONE"

In this situation, there's the "interview" by the bad guy(s). You realize that you may be in the middle of an interview by the criminal....but the situation doesn't warrant that you draw your weapon yet. The bad guy has not made his intentions clear....yet. It's that "grey zone". You are in a situation where evasion and escape is not quickly possible and yet...you have not been attacked yet.

Another situation in the "grey zone" involves being in an elevator. On your way up, someone hops in the elevator...who just gives you that bad vibe. Your planning your exit strategy at the next available stop....but meanwhile...those 30 seconds seem a very long time.

2. Scenario TWO: "Quick and up close"

In this situation, you are forced to be in close proximity with the BG. You are waiting in line at your local Mac Donalds. The guy next in line behind you all of the sudden gives you a sucker punch in hopes of knocking you out and stealing your wallet. (Yes, I've actually seen a security video of this happening. The chances of this exact situation happening may be slim...but I hope it illustrates my point.)

In those two scenarios... would you not agree that pocket carry may be the best option?

In both situations, you can have your hand on your gun out of habit...whenever you are at close proximity with others and when you get that bad vibe feeling (but don't warrant a drawn weapon yet).

I realize that IWB (which right now is still my favorite way to go) is faster than drawing from your pocket.... But with the hand on the gun already...would not pocket carry be more strategically beneficial?

Let me know what you think.
 
Situation 1
When you are being interviewed and you get that bad vibe that would be the time to distance yourself if you felt threatened. As you said escape and evasion may not be possible but that doesn't mean that you can't let the potential bg know that you are on to him/them. You can take a step or two back and prepare yourself for what may occur. If I was in this situation I could care less if I offend someone who is making me feel threatened. Letting the bg know that you are on to him and prepared may be enough for you to be passed on for an easier target.

In the elevator where you have no where to go you can again make it clear for lack of a better term "Not the one." You can still not let the guy get right up on top of you, if it is multiple people that would be harder to accomplish. I see no real benefit from pocket carry because untill their intentions are clear you have no justification for drawing. If they attack you still have to pull the gun from your pocket while being assaulted which may be easier said than done.

Situation 2


This is exactly the type of scenario that makes me opposed to pocket carry. I take into consideration how hard it will be to reach into my pocket if I'm knocked to my knees. How hard it it going to be to grab my gun while getting off the x. How hard is it going to be to grab my gun while getting punched repeatedly in the face. One thing I was taught as a correctional officer years ago was to keep my hands out of my pockets. I heard stories of officers being knocked unconscious by a sucker punch with their hand still in their pockets. Having your hand on your gun does no good if you can't get it out.

I know pocket carry is all the craze with all the nice pocket sized .380 pistols available and the J-frame is synonymous with pocket carry. I have carried a bug in my pocket before (I prefer this in a jacket pocket) but I prefer strong side iwb or aiwb carry for the speed and availability provided. It is easier to reach to your belt than it is to reach into your pocket imho. I'll probably get flamed for this but it's just my humble opinion and its worth less than what you paid for it.
 
You are thinking along very wise paths. As you recognize, no matter how bad the intents of the person you're confronted by may be, until some credible threat is made known, you cannot act with force or the threat of force. But the time when you can do the most good toward saving your life and/or stopping a violent attack is right then, when your "spidy sense" (situational awareness) is telling you that this person's actions, attitude, demeanor, attention toward/interest in you, etc. do not fit in the context of a peaceable situation.

Being "interviewed" is a very important part of almost any violent criminal encounter. There is a whole field of study about how to "fail" the victim interview, how to divert the course of events dramatically, how to interrupt the path that leads to an aggressor deciding to act on you, and those skills are worlds more important than whether you should carry on your belt or in a pocket.

Having said all that...

Pocket carry can be utilized in just the way you're describing, with the understanding that the fastest shot you'll be likely to make is through the pocket. Drawing from a pocket is tricky and somewhat fumble-prone, even with a shrouded hammer, dehorned gun. If you do carry that way, you really must practice until you get that right every time. However, if your style of pocket carry is in your pants pocket (rather than a coat pocket) then firing from within the pocket is pretty much out of the question -- certainly if you're aiming for the attacker's center-of-mass.

Acknowledging that point, an IWB or OWB belt holster is faster when considering all possible situations. If you have your hand already on the gun in your pocket, you might beat your draw time from a belt holster, but if you don't already have a firing grip, the pocket makes it a bit harder to achieve one.

And, I personally feel that pocket-carry (especially pants pocket carry) makes it a lot easier to block or bind the draw, if your opponent comprehends what you're about and manages to pin your arm or grapple with you. This is one of those things that is best practiced in the more advanced fighting-with-the-gun type training classes, but if you consider being knocked down and jumped on as at all probable (especially in a close situation like that elevator you mentioned) getting your gun into play might be completely impossible if it's in your pants pocket.

So, pocket carry has the advantage of sometimes being able to grip the gun before trouble starts in earnest, which is a plus. But it has a few negatives which might be compelling.

I think the corollary position for those of us who belt-carry is some variation of the "Jack Benny" posture. (Maybe a reversed version where the support hand guards the front/face while the strong hand rides low near the belt.) Wherein you place yourself in a non-threatening but guarded stance which prepares you to ward off an advance or attack with your support hand and giving your weapon hand as much shielding as possible from being grabbed so that it can cleanly sweep your cover garment, achieve a firing grip, and move the gun to a close retention position for the shot.

That maneuver wouldn't be as fast as firing from inside a coat pocket, but might be just as fast, or very nearly so, as drawing from a pants pocket, especially as it gives you a much higher chance of successfully gripping and drawing the gun quickly.
 
In scenario two, there are steps you can take to avoid being crowded and caught completely unaware.

(I habitually "fidgit" in lines anyway, turning around a lot and looking every which way, which drives some people nuts, but tends to keep the guy behind you from hanging right on your shoulder.)

But, if someone really gets in under your radar and thumps you solidly before you have any inkling you've been targeted, I don't really see what kind of advantage pocket carry gives you. He's either knocked you out -- and is free to take everything from your wallet, car keys, gun, down to your pocket lint -- or he's knocked you down and moved in close (probably pinning you) to make his thefts. In the unlikely event that you were conscious and/or free to grab your gun, getting it out of your pocket is going to be a lot harder than from a belt holster.
 
Thanks for all the replies. Discussions like these get the brain thinking.
 
In those two scenarios... would you not agree that pocket carry may be the best option?
Click to expand...

Like Sam said...drawing from the pants pocket is awkward. Most of the year hear in goold ol nc is jacket free (thankfully), so I would more than likely be drawing from the pocket. I tried it with a friend's rig that he swore by (nemesis or something?). It was awkward and the pocket top was prone to snag the pistol. If I tried pants with bigger pockets, the holster gripped the pocket in a great fashion...o great that it would sometimes bunch up and make the draw seem more like an extraction.

Then couple that with the fact that if I am attacked...I will not be standing upright when I draw. Standing around with your hands in your pockets if you think something may go wrong has some negative affects...like not having an arm to block a sudden knife slash or swing or whatever. If my hand isn't in my pocket, after you are attacked initially you likely will be stooped from the blow or worse...on the ground. That's going to make pocket access tricky and the draw trickier.

I'll stick to IWB. I am more comfortable with it, I can carrier a larger weapon and I just plain draw faster.

I'm no defense expert, so I could be off base on this one...ymmv
 
In those two scenarios... would you not agree that pocket carry may be the best option?
Click to expand...

Yes, for me at any rate. In the dicey situations I've been in over the years, having hand on revolver in pocket has been an incredibly nice feeling. Things happen so fast I have little faith in my ability to get to a CCW on a belt and draw it before I'm sent under. I like to have a hand on it. These days I use the Maxpedition religiously, and it's darn nice. Very very nice.

getting it out of your pocket is going to be a lot harder than from a belt holster.
Click to expand...

That depends on the pocket. I get the feeling some folks think pocket carry means tight jean pockets or something.

There are of course drawbacks to everything, and you have to practice whatever you use. But having been cornered by some of Alaska's finest out-and-out nutcases (and we grow them ALASKA crazy up here), I do not like to not have my hand on iron. The bad guy will have the initiative. That means if you have three, four or five steps to get to your firearm and get into firing positions that may be three, four or five steps too late for you. No steps or one step as a back up is hard to beat.

For me, if he's stabbing me or about to fire, I have the option of shooting him through the bag at contact range. Barring that, I practice to begin firing immediately upon bringing the revolver up whether or not my sights are perfect. I just shoot shoot shoot. I don't want hesitation on drawing or hesitation on shooting, which means minimizing steps between hand and firearm.

Plus in the winter I already have the degloving to worry about, which is a very difficult step to avoid. And if I'm worried about something I can keep the ungloved hand in the pocket, sheltered from subzero. I've tried the glove+Glock route but found I lost too much fine motor control.
 
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Something you said, Sam, I find very interesting; about "failing" the victim interview and diverting the subsequent course of events that the aggressor might take. Would you mind steering me toward any written materials or websites on this topic, or elaborating on the same? Once again, I appreciate your commentary!
 
SleazyRider said:
Something you said, Sam, I find very interesting; about "failing" the victim interview and diverting the subsequent course of events that the aggressor might take. Would you mind steering me toward any written materials or websites on this topic, or elaborating on the same? Once again, I appreciate your commentary!
Click to expand...
+1 please for further info on failing the victim interview Sam.... since we in the UK are denied the right to defend ourselves in anything but the most basic way.. avoiding the worst is our best chance of a favourable outcome.
 
I recommend carrying both ways. My primary, normally a bottom feeder these days, is on my right hip, with my new BUG, a S&W 642 with a Crimson Trace I acquired about 12 years ago, is in my left trouser pocket. (I am a Florida Boy living in Southern Arizona, note a theme here. Either way, cover documents are a rarity where I choose to live.)

I have been carrying a 'J' frame as a BUG since 1967. I carried a S&W model 38'humpback' Bodyguard in my pocket, in Vietnam. That was in addition do my M14 and 1911. Later when carrying a service revolver on the hip, you would have found a 'J' frame in my left pocket. At varying times over the years, S&W model 49, 649, 638, and now 642. I also still have the 638.

It is basically about the tool box. For non-military, SWAT type LEO, only a fool knows how his defensive fight is going to take place. It will NOT be what you have planned for. That is a promise. A collection of tools/capabilities is what is reacquired for the coming fight. Not a delusion that the fight I want and have trained for is going to happen. It isn't. Training for the unexpected is very difficult. We can train to use and apply various capabilities.

What the gun fighter needs is a collection of 'tools' and/or capabilities to answer the fight he will suddenly find himself in. I have often been standing and talking to folks I was not comfortable with, and for one reason or other was not able to immediately withdraw from that ground. I was standing there talking to them, with my 'J' frame out of the holster in my hand, still in the pocket, ready to bring into action. Leaving the heavier and more effective primary belt weapon to back up the BUG/'J' frame.

In many colder jurisdictions than I am willing to suffer through, LEO's keep a BUG hammerless 'J' frame in their jackets. They can be interviewing people while keeping them effectively covered. A truly effective and wise tactic.

Side note, shooting a weapon from a pocket or from under blankets or out of a sleeping bag will usually start a small fire. Nothing you can't handle, just don't be surprised. and panic

Always build capability. You may not care for or need a given capability, but better to have and not need, than need and not have. Heard that before?

Good luck.

Fred
 
Would you mind steering me toward any written materials or websites on this topic, or elaborating on the same?
Click to expand...

My first link would be to the group of people from whom I've learned quite a bit (outside of right here at THR, that is): ATSA

(To my disappointment, I've never been able to be an active participant with NTI (yet), but I know some of the primary folks personally, shoot with a few of them weekly, and am MD of the IDPA group at the host range for NTI, with which, of course, there's a lot of personnel overlap.)

That link features quite a few writings on mindset, though a quick scan through doesn't point out exactly what I was looking for.

The idea of failing your "victim interview" is something that has developed out of the work of some very dedicated people who've studied criminal behavior for decades -- and then practiced realistically acting out those tactics and behaviors as "opfor" participants in very open-ended simunitions (and airsoft) force-on-force scenarios that form the core of the NTI itself and their regular study group sessions.

What they've found is that most muggings and other violent encounters begin long before the victims have any idea something's up. A good predator doesn't act at random, but looks for certain types upon which to prey. Some of these typings are fairly obvious (don't pick the bearded guy with the red-winged skull tattooed on his forearms, do pick the guy in the sweater vest with the nice watch) and some aren't even explainable by the criminals themselves.

One thing they do look for is someone not paying attention -- unaware of what is happening in front of him, behind him, across the street, etc. Keeping your head "on a swivel" and taking obvious notice of those who are noticing you does seem to stall out some criminal events before they even get started. If you can't be surprised, the tip of the criminal actor's offense is somewhat blunted. If you see them coming (or waiting for you up ahead) and look like you might be considering some response, they might just choose to grab the next guy who doesn't see them.

And, some of it is an act/show -- though it has to be realistic and convincing. Looking purposeful, aware, and capable (rather than bewildered, shy, and acquiescent) puts you at the "wrong" end of the victim pool, at least to a degree.

Another aspect to consider is that a good predator doesn't manhandle his victims into a compromised position. The most successful ones (just like in nature) find ways to get the victim to willingly head into the trap. That can be use of buildings and terrain to bottleneck and isolate someone. ("Hey, come here and give me a hand! My buddy's sick over here behind this dumpster!") Or it can be various techniques for fooling someone to do something that opens themselves to attack. (The simple, "Hey buddy, got a light?" classic opener gets someone looking away from the attacker for a moment, hands into pockets, head down, etc.)

Abandoning the basic human instinct to act to assist someone else before you really think about your situation can ease you past some danger spots. "Sorry, I can't help you. I'll call a cop." ... don't break stride and keep on walking. (Sure, they might chase you down and drag you behind the dumpster -- or they may let you walk and grab the next guy who is more compliant.)

These are the first ripples of disrupting the criminals "OODA" loop. The next steps get a little more bold. The guy in the elevator may be sizing you up as an easy and captive target. Something as simple as engaging him in a firm, but polite conversation may jump in ahead of his plan. ("Good Morning! That's a great hat! Are you going to see the prostate doctor, too?" ... perhaps said a little too loud and with a bit more direct eye-contact than casual conversation usually requires.) By breaking up his script, you force him to change strategy at least to a degree.

One of my favorite stories from such studies was of one practitioner who was walked up on by someone in a parking lot. The fellow saw this man rapidly and furtively advancing, but his hands were full of groceries. Just as the potential mugger arrived at his side, the "defender" turned and without even thinking about it, said, "Oh HI! THANKS!" and pushed two arms full of grocery bags into the startled man's arms. In one, very unexpected move, the defender completely turned the tables, bound up his assailant's hands and freed his own for a draw if things were to escalate.

He did nothing illegal, forceful, or to escalate the situation, but he did something unexpected that made the attacker completely reboot his plan. He has to decide to stand there like an idiot with his arms full of groceries while his potential mark calmly finds his keys, cell phone, (and maybe GUN), or he has to dump the groceries, clear his hands, and try to outdraw this man who is obviously sizing up his next step. In the worst case, there was no ill intent and the victim has very slightly inconvenienced someone who meant no harm but had caused him to go to alert/alarm mode.

There is vastly more to this, of course, and infinite variety of results. (Not all of them satisfactory, of course.) This is NOT a "hard" science. It is a series of tools for maybe tipping the balance in your favor -- or out of your disfavor. No guarantees of success, but a lot of study has gone into figuring these little techniques out.

Further, all of this plays off the idea of advantage. If the attacker(s) have all the time they want, no worries about observation/discovery, superior numbers, positional advantage, etc. then these subtle initiative shifts probably can't accomplish much. However, when the situation is one (or two) on one, and the moment of action is fleeting, and the victim has several avenues of movement left open, etc, one of these OODA breakers may be enough to pass the criminal's "not-worth-the-trouble" threshold.

I'll try to get some time later to get some more thoughts down.
 
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Pay attention to your surroundings. If someone is standing next to you in line, look at them. I mean really LOOK at them. Right in the face. Most criminals are really cowards and won't go for hard targets. Look at them to determine if they are a 'threat.'

I call it 'assessing' others for a threat. Does the man standing behind you make you uncomfortable. Position yourself so that you cannot be ambushed by him, or move a few spots behind him in line.

If you are being 'interviewed' get off the X as quickly and tactically as possible. Don't allow yourself to be distracted or surrounded.

Pay attention and watch your six.
 
There is a potential question on the eye-contact issue. I know that in some parts of the world, making direct eye contact is extremely rude, and in others it is simply not done as a cultural trait.

I've also read that it isn't a good idea to be making eye contact with some of the less average men-on-the-street in inner city parts of this country either. The idea being that looking eye-to-eye at someone may be seen as a challenge to a dominant male on his own turf -- akin to staring someone down. (The advice is often, "Look confident, move purposefully, keep your eyes straight ahead and don't make eye contact.")

I really don't know how to balance this idea against the opposite good counsel that one should make eye-contact, exude confidence, let it be seen that you are acknowledging and assessing a potential threat, and make the appearance of not being a soft target.

I'm not sure that I believe that looking someone in the eyes will prompt that person to attack you, if they weren't already going to do so, but I really don't have enough experience with street culture to say that one of these paths is universally better than the other. (And I really would be out of my depth to try and advise someone looking to apply these concepts in, say, Karachi, Sao Paolo, or Cape Town.)

Probably the dynamics of a specific situation have a lot to do with it. You might be able to bluff off one guy or a pair with the eye contact strategy but that same guy, in front of a group of his pals and needing to show his mettle, may react very differently.

Obviously you DO have to see and comprehend potential threats as far ahead as possible, and you DO want to make the appearance of being a non-optimal choice as victim. Reading the situation quickly and accurately may help you make the right choice (if there is one).
 
I would suggest as far as eye contact goes that it is fine to let them know you see them and acknowledge them. I generally give a little nod of the head when I make eye contact with others. IMO it looks more like your just acknowledging someones presence. I don't recommend staring the person down or prolonged eye contact because it could be actually antagonize a criminal who hadn't planned on targeting you before.

Someone else said that most criminals are cowards and I agree with that to a certain extent. They are cowards when conducting criminal acts, acts which need to be done quickly with as little attention as possible so that they can maximize their chances of success. You put that same criminal in a situation where he feels he must prove himself a man he will act generally the same as any other man when his ego, manhood or self image is disrespected or challenged by another. This is multiplied when in a group behavior because he now has to prove himself to his friends as well as himself.

The thread on the attack in Denver is a good example of that. I believe the man would have been treated the same if he had tried to stare down the group to let it beknow that he didn't approve of their actions instead of asking them to show respect.


If someone makes you feel nervous or like your being targeted when your standing in line you can always let them in front of you or step out of the line. I have let people who I didn't want behind me ahead at restaraunts and checkouts. I usually just tell them "Go ahead, I'm not sure what I want yet." or I act like I forgot something and go to another checkout lane or wait for them to move up a bit in the line.
 
"Failing" a "criminal interview"

Most people in this forum have at least heard of the "criminal interview." If not, this is how criminals determine whether they are going to target you or not.

Sometimes, they'll just watch you from a distance. Sometimes they will try to get closer than you are comfortable with to see how aware you are and how you react. There are lots of variations, but the underlying concept is that they are probing you before making the decision to make you into a victim. If you "pass," you get robbed/stabbed/raped, and if you "fail" they move on to easier targets. If you fail, you can't even call the cops because they technically did nothing wrong, and that is how the criminals want it. You know he was considering taking your car, and he probably knows that you know he was considering taking your car... and that's why he didn't pull a knife and try to take it...

My question is about how to "fail" this interview. Things have NOT gotten to the point where force can be used yet. Nor can you draw or anything like that. You can't even call the cops, because there's been no crime committed. But there are things you can do or things you can say that let them know that you aren't a good candidate. There have to be, otherwise, why would they bother with this "interview" if there weren't certain dis-qualifiers?

How do you fail an "interview" so it never even reaches the point where force is involved?
 
I had one of these in Hillbrow, Johannesburg a few years back.
I was walking to the indoor range and was carrying IWB 3 o'clock, gun wasn't visible under the T-shirt.
As I drew almost level with an alley on my right I saw one dude leaning against the wall facing the direction from where I had come. I had taken a few more steps when he stepped out and asked me for the time. At that point I noticed two more yutes who had been further in the alley but were now walking out to stand next to the first dude.
Pretty much an interview situation, a rare sighting of a white boy on foot in Hillbrow, maybe he got some stuffz, know what I mean?
So I turned, lifted my left hand up so I could read the watchface and see the yutes' faces in the background and announced loudly the time. I let my South African accent roam free so they knew this was a home-grown cracker, not some lost tourist ;)
To demonstrate my helpfulness even further, I did not leave after I told them the time (not straight away anyway). I asked them if there was anything else they needed help with.
Seems they didn't need any more help and made some slow shambling moves back into the alley. I made a few 360s on my way up the road but they didn't come out of the alley.
 
Threads merged. Figure we all might as well be talking about this in the same place, so to speak! :)
 
My question is about how to "fail" this interview..... But there are things you can do or things you can say that let them know that you aren't a good candidate.
Click to expand...

IMO, some of the keys to "failure" are as follows:

1. Stay in good shape, if possible, so as not to appear weak.
- Criminals would rather attack the weak / unfit

2. Be cognizant of non-verbal communication and project strength and confidence.
- Walk tall with confidence, don't slouch, and keep your head high
- Look an individual right in the eyes when they are moving toward "your space" when they have no reason to do so, and read what's in their eyes, and their body language

3. Speak with confidence, project your voice, and be firm and decisive
- Be polite, but assertive

4. Mark your limit of advance
- Tell them stop/close enough/what do you want/etc and raise an open hand as a means to communicate your approach boundary. Most will pick up on this as meaning "if you get any closer, we are going hands on"



My .02c....
 
4. Mark your limit of advance
- Tell them stop/close enough/what do you want/etc and raise an open hand as a means to communicate your approach boundary. Most will pick up on this as meaning "if you get any closer, we are going hands on"
Click to expand...

I'd also add that you should have a script in your head of what to do next, as well.

This can go two ways. 1) The potential bad guy may get the hint and back off. (He may not have been a bad guy after all or he may have decided that you're too likely to cause trouble.) Great. Keep an eye on him, and around you, and move along quickly.

2) The potential bad guy may not take the hint at all. But that doesn't mean you can clear leather. Maybe he's deaf, crazy, socially inept, or just stupid. Can't shoot him for that. Can't even threaten him (brandish) for that. Maybe he's not impressed with your show and is proceeding with his nefarious plan, unabated. Until and unless you see a credible threat of actual force, you can't react with force, but waiting until you can smell the potential bad guy's breath is defeating your situational awareness.

So what does your pre-decision path tell you to do?
 
First, I'm an American. I refuse to live in constant fear. If I die on my feet, and don't live on my knees, I'll go to my maker figuring I lived in a great country and did better than to break even in the overall picture.

That said, IMO, most "interviews" aren't spoken. They're observation and reaction only.

I'm somewhat feral, I guess, but when I hear something behind me, I look around, make hard eye contact, and look, to be polite,less than pleased.

But I'm guessing the real threat is going to be the sudden surprise scenario where I'm given as little time and space to respond as the BGs can possibly permit. I'm guessing when the SHTF, I'll probably be making a hammer blow with the hand holding my CCW, just to help create enough space to avoid a grapple. Hopefully I'll be in my "slightly paranoid" mode, paying attention, with my hand already on my gun. I'm just getting older and slower, and I know if I'm not ready to respond, it's certainly going to be an uphill battle for me, at least.

But, no matter how it ends, I'm determined to go down fighting, and take as many of them with me as I can. That's something else which on a subconscious level, I think most criminals can also read, as part of a "successful interview".
 
Keep it simple. No "speeches".

Last Christmas while waiting for an Amtrak train to Chicago, I was accosted by an aggressive panhandler who hit up all of the women first with his sob story of living in his car with his kids. None of them were smart or confident enough to shut him down. I was wondering if he'd try the same spiel with an adult male. He finally worked his way to me and started his "script". I instantly gave him the "Josey Wales" look and simply said, "I've got nothing for you." He practically tripped over his own feet looking for another "candidate". It probably didn't hurt that I was wearing an NRA instructor's cap and reading Ayoob's "Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry". A couple of minutes later, an Amtrak cop showed up and hauled him off.

Sometimes you don't need to say anything. A few years before that, in the same station, a guy started hassling all of the women in the station, then latched onto an Amish couple. In German, I told the husband that the guy was crazy and not to talk to him. The guy turned to me, and just as he started to say something, he looked me in the eye. He went pale, turned on his heel and found some place else to be. Apparently he looked in my eye expecting to find Mr. Rogers and instead saw Randall Flagg.
 
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