UPDATE: OKC Pharmacist Jerome Ersland Convicted Of Murder

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Fred Fuller

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There were several threads on this here at THR, see one of them at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=452827 .

lpl
===

http://www.newson6.com/story/14733747/erland-case-now-in-the-hands-of-the-jury?clienttype=printable

Ersland Found Guilty Of Murder
Posted: May 26, 2011 2:04 PM
Updated: May 26, 2011 6:06 PM

OKLAHOMA CITY -- The jury has found pharmacist Jerome Ersland guilty of first degree murder in the shooting death of 16-year-old Antwun Parker during a botched robbery at the Reliable Pharmacy in 2009.

Ersland faces life in prison without parole.
===snip===
 
Lesson learned:

Immediacy.

Be able to justify why there was an IMMEDIATE need to use deadly force when you started shooting.

Be able to recognize when there is no longer an IMMEDIATE need to use deadly force and STOP shooting.

IMO, this is THE aspect most citizens dork up when using deadly force.
 
What JoeSlomo said.

Ersland is also a case study in how not to conduct one self after a fatal shooting. He was on TV several times. Then there is the part where Ersland lied to the police.
 
It was the way Ersland conducted the fatal shooting itself that got him in trouble, despite what he said after the fact. The evidence indicated he went back and finished off the would be robber after the initial shots were fired.

There really are legal limits where self defense is concerned, no one can appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner. And forensics will tell in the end.

fwiw,

lpl
====

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/okla-jury-convicts-pharmacist-958683.html

NATIONAL / WORLD NEWS 8:21 p.m. Thursday, May 26, 2011
Okla. jury convicts pharmacist once hailed as hero
By TIM TALLEY
The Associated Press

==snip==
Jerome Ersland, 59, had been hailed as a hero for protecting two co-workers during the May 19, 2009, robbery attempt at the Reliable Discount Pharmacy in a crime-ridden neighborhood in south Oklahoma City.

A prosecutor, however, said that after Ersland shot Antwun Parker in the head, knocking the 16-year-old to the ground, Ersland made himself "judge, jury, executioner" by getting a second handgun and shooting the boy five times in the abdomen. A coroner's report said the latter shots killed Parker.
==snip==
 
You know...I've seen the video, read the on-line discussions, and followed the coverage by the press.

In point of fact, Ersland DID execute a robber.

However, I'm severely disappointed in our legal system for not properly accounting for human action/emotion during life & death scenarios and applying a statute to cover these sort of situations.

1. No one should be held to account for obvious death by misadventure precipitated by armed criminals who instigate a violent felony. Sort of like all robbers being charged for a murder committed during the commission of a violent felony, even if not all robbers actually pulled the trigger. Or...in my simplistic view...you buys your ticket, you takes your chances.

2. I'm astounded by the inability of a jury to apply common sense to the situation and impose #1 in the absence of such a written law.

Ersland should have been protected by a Good Samaritan-like statute. A sort of standing Temporary Insanity Defense, where the victim is automatically presumed to have acted legally and in good faith. He also should have been given a civic achievement medal and a modest stipend for ridding society of an armed threat.

I know that the argument has been made as to what passage of events constitutes an obvious end to the threat, thereby delineating the threshold between lawful self defense & commission of homicide. This equation no doubt forced the jury into a very subjective decision making process concerning TIME. I will posit that in ALL cases like this, the law should presume that a civilian defendent be immune from prosecution until passing a PHYSIOLOGICAL RESPONSE threshold vice one measured in arbitrary TIME FRAMES. In other words, if you offer violence, a person exercising legal self defense is immune for lethal actions taken against you until such time as that defender has had adequate time to CALM DOWN. Whether that period of time is measured in seconds, minutes, or tens of minutes...the presumption would be defender innocence due to physiological stress brought on by the attacker. Or again, in my simplistic view...tough luck for the robbers.

Unfortunately, that's not the way this one played out, there is no such law, and I'm sure the jury received explicit instruction that sealed Ersland's fate.

Oh well.
 
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So if you're still emotionally wrought-up that the guy tried to rob you, executing him should be ok?

I think I'm more comfortable with the law the way it stands pretty much universally.
 
I hope these threads stay away from the "astoundingly stupid jury" comments.

Not being at the trial, we don't know what evidence was presented.
We don't know how well (or how poorly) the evidence was presented.
We don't know how well (or how poorly) the defense was presented.
The vast majority of us don't know the law in that state.
We have not read judge's instructions to the jury.
We do not know anything about deliberations in the jury room.



We only display our own ignorance when we berate the jury from afar.
 
"Ersland faces life in prison without parole."

The article said he 'faces' life in prison. Is that the sentence? Or no sentencing yet, just the news writer's way of saying he MIGHT get life.
 
So if you're still emotionally wrought-up that the guy tried to rob you, executing him should be ok?

Quite possibly. IF the defender perceived himself as still under threat and the "execution" a continuance of an already launched self defense shooting. Not mandated that anything is OK. Just that the presumption of maliciously pre-meditated execution would have to be explicitly proven to a Grand Jury (who could choose to ignore the act of the defender under cover of such an immunity statute).

People are emotionally wrought-up in life and death situations. On the other hand, all of our laws are written from the comfort of the arm chair.



We only display our own ignorance when we berate the jury from afar.

No. "We" don't. Speak for yourself. I do. I mean exactly what I say.
 
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have to say i agree with the verdict
shooting an unconscious man was revenge or crime of passion not self defense
the threat was stopped
 
Actually...I agree with the technical verdict. I disagree with that verdict as a vehicle for the dispensation of justice in this case. As the law exists, how could there be any other outcome...unless he was No-Billed to start with. I say the law should be written so that no charges would be warranted in a similiar future case.

Written law doesn't always account for the extreme gamut of human emotional response during violent encounters. It's easy to sit back and talk about how Ersland crossed the line and should have done this, that, or the other. In reality, he did the best he could under the circumstances and went crazy. He survived and the robber didn't. It should have ended there.

Ersland was caught up in the fury of life and death combat and is now second guessed by everyone armed with the luxury of being able to leisurely view the video, devoid of all emotional involvement, and debate woulda, coulda, shouda...

Naturally, no one would ever get so pumped full of fear, anger, adrenaline, and energy during a close ranged gunfight...that they'd keep fighting past the point where it was a practical necessity. Or even be able to recognize that circumstance.

That's a ridiculous assumption for survival in a combat zone firefight. It's a ridiculous assumption for an armed robbery shootout.

No fault affirmative defense against violent felony offenders should be codified to exempt actions taken in the heat of combat and it's IMMEDIATE aftermath (which phase the participants may not have the faculties to even recognize due to elevated stress).
 
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Ersland was caught up in the fury of life and death combat and is now second guessed by everyone armed with the luxury of being able to leisurely view the video, devoid of all emotional involvement, and debate woulda, coulda, shouda...

Seems to me we've spent a good bit of time working on "Problem Two" issues here in ST&T lately (Problem One being the gunfight, Problem Two being the court fight). To me this case seems a timely reminder of why that's probably a good idea. We're trying to help each other as best we can, through a far from perfect medium, to prepare to face harrowing circumstances and still prevail. That's a pretty tall order.

We say pretty often here at ST&T that we should be aware that decisions we are forced to make and actions we are forced to take in split seconds on the street or in the home, under stress and in grave danger, are likely to be reviewed in great detail later by people who have the luxury of perfect physical comfort, who are under no stress, with lots of time available to them to dissect what we did and why we said it was necessary to do it in that split second. That's the reality we face every day we carry or otherwise maintain access to a defensive firearm.

In a perfect world, yes - there would be allowances for human failings. But we live here and now, under sets of legal constructs which insist that we are supposed to behave according to a pretty strict set of standards, even in the gravest extreme. As time goes on, if current trends prevail at the state level, we'll perhaps see more legal consideration offered to good people caught up in bad circumstances. In the book I reviewed here recently (After You Shoot by Alan Korwin), there's a piece of model legislation that proposes limited immunity for initial statements (including 9-1-1 calls) made by those who are reporting threatened or actual use of force in justifiable self defense. I think getting that sort of legislation adopted state by state on a national basis would be a great way to begin a move forward in this regard.

But right now we are where we are legally, and it behooves us to be as fully informed as possible as to what our rights - and responsibilities - are in following the law, and as fully prepared to maintain our responsibilities as we can be. As I say so often - we are the good guys here. That's no small job...

fwiw,

lpl
 
Just venting. (picks up faded old Good Guy hat from off the ground).

Justice will be served according to the law. Perhaps the judge & jury will deliver a lenient sentence.
 
Chindo18Z said:
...I'm severely disappointed in our legal system for not properly accounting for human action/emotion during life & death scenarios...
Lee Lapin said:
...In a perfect world, yes - there would be allowances for human failings...
Actually, the law does account for human emotion and human failings.

An essential element of the crime of murder is a mental state called malice, i. e., ill will or evil intent. Certain circumstances likely to create a highly charged emotional state and cause a reasonable person to lose control can negate malice. An intentional killing of one person by another under such severe emotion stress is not murder. It is manslaughter, i. e., the intentional killing of one person by another without malice.

Manslaughter is considered a less serious crime than murder and usually carries lesser penalties.

It is common in murder cases for the judge to also instruct the jury on manslaughter. Thus if the jury finds no malice, the jury might convict on manslaughter rather than murder. I don't know for sure if that was done in this case.

But in any case, the jury would have had to have found malice to convict Ersland of murder. Malice might have been inferred from the facts that (1) apparently Ersland shot, and stopped, BG1; (2) he then pursued BG2; (3) at some point after shooting BG1, Ersland also procured another gun; and (4) after chasing BG2, Ersland walked over to the still down BG1 and calmly shot him again, finishing him off. I suspect that chain of events was the basis for the jury's finding that all the elements of the crime of murder, including malice, were satisfied.

Chindo18Z said:
...I will posit that in ALL cases like this, the law should presume that a civilian defendent be immune from prosecution until passing a PHYSIOLOGICAL RESPONSE threshold vice one measured in arbitrary TIME FRAMES....
Well the law can be changed. Write your legislators and see where you get. If you fail to get the law changed, perhaps that means that too many people think your idea is lousy.
 
fiddletown: I suspect that chain of events was the basis for the jury's finding that all the elements of the crime of murder, including malice, were satisfied.

I suspect that you are correct in your supposition (and as I previously mentioned).

fiddletown: If you fail to get the law changed, perhaps that means that too many people think your idea is lousy.

Riiight...:rolleyes:

My idea isn't lousy...merely controversial. I've lived in lands where such ideas (and the laws to enforce them) have worked amazingly well for centuries.

I don't dispute that Ersland committed murder (execution) vice manslaughter. I believe that he in fact committed said act with extreme malicious intent, but that the malice was both provoked and justifiable.

I simply say that he should not have been prosecuted for a crime and that the agressor was responsible for his own potential death the second he initiated the crime of armed robbery. The criminal's actions were directly responsible for the victim's conduct, including an apparent irrational act (the followup shots) conducted during the heat of the moment.

I'd like to see a national immunity clause for violent felonies absolving victims of criminal and civil liability for exercising legal self defense with regard to death or injury inflicted upon the perpetrator/s. A self-defending victim would still be liable for unintentional injury to bystanders or property damage in accordance with State law.

Think out of the box.

Our legal system isn't sacrosanct. In many cases, it's simply a racket for profit. I prefer justice to process. It's a difference of opinion. I'm sticking to mine.

Thanks for yours.
 
Moral of the story. DON'T TRY TO ROB PEOPLE!!!!! Our justice system sickens me. If you try to commit a violent crime against someone then the person defending themselves should not even have to go to court. Period. That guy was in his store WORKING. The deceased would still be alive if he would not have made the choice to commit armed robbery. I don't care if he would have emptied a tommy gun drum magazine into the guy. Just a short time ago they finally put to death 1 of 3 guys that committed horrible crimes against our family's friends 25 years ago. The Parker family. They came home from church and the guys shot Mr. Parker in the shoulder and then tied him and his son up and made them watch as they brutally raped Mrs. Parker and their young daughter. When they got finished with the daughter they put a gun inside her and emptied it. They then killed the rest after they were forced to watch the execution of their daughter. Oh yea, during this time they cut off their fingers with rings on them. After all this they set the house on fire and left. They were farmers and lived close to no one. One guy walked after a few years. One guy got life without parole, and one they put to death 25 years after the fact. That's our justice system at work. They will let out one of the guys that done this, yet, they will do what they did to the guy defending his store and employees.
 
Murder? No. Manslaughter? Yes.

The jury had a choice between first degree murder, first degree manslaughter and innocent. The jury got it wrong. i think there is a good chance this verdict will be overturned by the OK Court of Criminal Appeals.
 
As for retaliating after the threat is gone, it's silly on it's face to explicitly allow for it in all situations as long as you claim you were really really peeved at the time.

For the times when it might be appropriate, it's already accommodated through an insanity defense.

I don't think we need to rewrite our legal system just yet, at least not for this reason.
 
English is a wonderful language, one with deep etymological roots. And the English-based system of common law has roots just as deep as the language itself. Take the word "outlaw" for example. Bolding below is mine:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/outlaw

Definition of OUTLAW

1: a person excluded from the benefit or protection of the law
2
a : a lawless person or a fugitive from the law
b : a person or organization under a ban or restriction
c : one that is unconventional or rebellious
3: an animal (as a horse) that is wild and unmanageable
— outlaw adjective


From a discussion of a figure known in long-ago England as Robin Hood, we get the following description:

An outlaw, in those times, being deprived of protection, owed no allegiance; his hand was against every man, and every man's hand was against him. -- http://www.mspong.org/picturesque/sherwood_forest.html

Wikipedia explains:

In historical legal systems, an outlaw is a person declared as outside the protection of the law. In pre-modern societies, this takes the burden of active persecution of a criminal from the authorities. Instead, the criminal is withdrawn all legal protection, so that anyone is legally empowered to persecute or kill them. Outlawry was thus one of the harshest penalties in the legal system, since the outlaw had only himself to protect himself, but it also required no enforcement on the part of the justice system. In early Germanic law, the death penalty is conspicuously absent, and outlawing is the most extreme punishment, presumably amounting to a death sentence in practice. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw

Even so, in order for 'open season' to be declared on a given individual, there had to be a formal declaration that person was outlawed. It wasn't just a given.

So even long ago, there were limits... legal limits... in place on how criminals were treated. True enough, life as a criminal was likely to be much more harsh in every sense in those days.

So, there's your word for the day, ST&T. Outlaw.

fwiw,

lpl
 
Posted by fallout mike: If you try to commit a violent crime against someone then the person defending themselves should not even have to go to court. Period.
Human beings have been killing other human beings for various reasons since the beginning of the human race. The age old questions have been, when is killing justified, how can a killing be judged after the fact, and what is to be done when an unjustified killing (or any other crime, for that matter) has occurred.

Systems of law have evolved over several millenia, and our current system of laws has its roots in the English Common Law set forth by judges eight or nine centuries ago. Here are two key tenets of the law that apply to this case:

  • While most acts of violence are treated as crimes, one may lawfully use deadly force when necessary to defend onself against death or serious injury, and sometimes, to prevent certain forcible felonies.
  • Individuals may not themselves pass judgment over others or exact justice for a crime that has been committed.

So, how do we decide whether an act of violence was lawful or criminal? There is obviously only one way. The case has to go to court.

In the Oklahoma case at hand, the court found that the killing of the criminal victim did not constitute an act of defense against a violent crime. The videotape, and reports released last year about some of the evidence, are rather convincing in showing that the man who was killed, though he had committed a crime of violence, no longer presented a threat to the shooter.

That much is probably indisputable, and the jury's verdict certainly reflects that finding. But it went farther than that: that Oklahoma jury found unanimously that the shooter caused the death of the victim unlawfully and with malice aforethought--that he acted with the deliberate intention to unlawfully take the life of the victim.

The videotape appears to be reasonably clear on that also. However, the only way to find out why the jurors all came to that conclusion would be to interview them. None of us here sat through the entire trial, saw all of the evidence, heard all of the testimony, and then decided in accordance with the Oklahoma jury instructions. We therefore cannot judge.

One would hope that anyone who might have thought that a crime victim would be justified in shooting someone in retribution or for any other unlawful reason, and who has studied this case, has learned something valuable from it.
 
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