Upstairs or Downstairs for defense?

[MaterDei]

This is a home defense question.

My house has the master down and the kids' rooms upstairs. 3 boys in one room, 2 girls in another and my oldest girl has her own room. The floor plan in my house would make it almost impossible for anybody to either go upstairs or come downstairs unnoticed if a BG was in the house already. To eliminate having to use the stairs I plan on putting a hole through the floor in my sons' closet that would open up downstairs into my master bathroom which contains my closet which contains my armory.

My question is this. In the event that a BG is in my house or trying to get in my house, should I:

1. Have the kids come down to me and my wife
2. Have my wife and I both go upstairs
3. Neither of the above

Plan 1 would require that my kids reacted according to plan. My two oldest, aged 13 and 16, could help the younger ones.

Plan 2 would require some sort of ladder be installed so that my wife could get up through the hole.

Plan 3 would require input from you.

 

[Denny Hansen]

Assuming (the most dangerous word in the English language) that you don't risk being burned out, I think the most prudent would be go to the kids. Ever ask your kids, "Come here" and be greeted with "Just a minute"? Time and lack of confusion is at a premium here.

Also, anyone coming up the stairs to do you harm would be entering a fatal funnel of your choice, kids coming down the stairs may be entering a funnel of the BG's.

Just my .02

Denny

 

[Cruiser]

My initial thought was that it really didn't matter as long as your family was together in one place. Then you would know that anyone trying to enter that location was not friendly.

The more I think about it though, I feel it's better for you to go to the kids. They are not consolidated in the room with the trap door. All 3 of your girls would have to negotiate territory that potentially belongs to the bad guy for them to get to safety. You wouldn't be in a position to cover them for much of that journey.

By you going up, you can go to the doorway of the boys' room and cover the hall while the girls move to you. You won't be able to do any of this silently, so if you are confronted by the bad guy, you will be able to articulate that he/she knowingly moved toward the occupants of the house (while y'all were trying to avoid them), thus demonstrating his/her intent to harm the occupants. Once you have the family gathered together in the boys' room, you will have to cover/defend the doorway and the trap door, but that shouldn't be too difficult, as you will likely hear the bad guy, especially if they are trying to negotiate going up through a trap door.

Don't forget to install a phone in the boys' room so you can call 911

 

[Sharpie1]

Here is what I would do if I were you.

I would put lockable doorknobs on all of the kids' bedroom doors - all of which use one key. Key(s) should be placed in certain place in the house in case of nighttime lockout - and of course, Mommy and Daddy should have their own key for the rooms at all times. Of course, Mommy and Daddy's room should be uniquely keyed.

Everyone would be instructed to sleep with the bedroom door locked. If someone must visit the restroom at night, they would unlock the door, go to the bathroom, then lock the bedroom door back behind them when they go back to bed.

Also - a wireless intercom system that also has a battery backup feature would be placed in each bedroom. This way, the occupants of the bedrooms could communicate, even if the power was disconnected. And, if a bump is heard at night, or if an intruder is suspected - the children would be instructed to contact Mommy and Daddy on the intercom - NOT go investigate. Most intercom systems come with a "call" feature - which is a button that is on each intercom that when pressed, sounds a tone on all other intercoms. This is designed to get the attention of those who should be listening. This will prevent you from having to yell into the intercom.

It also wouldn't be a bad idea to put an intercom or two throughout the house so that you could announce to any would-be intruder that you know they're there, and that you just called 911 (even if you didn't) and that you are more than adequately armed. If they don't heed the warning, and attempt anything further, then too bad for the bad guy.

If there is indeed an intruder present, you want to minimize movement of your family, as this will obviously expose them to greater danger. That being said, the ONLY family member(s) that should be moving, in my opinion, are adults - not children. As someone alluded to earlier - try waking up all your children and order them all to get somewhere else in the home besides their bed at 3 am and see what happens. It is just too dangerous.

You could also beef up the bedroom doors and install a significant deadbolt.

You should also invest in a couple of $10 motion sensor alarms that can be turned on at night when everyone is asleep - and placed in areas of the home where an intruder might first come in - such as the kitchen, living room or basement. If someone enters an area where no one should be at night, a loud alarm would sound, waking everyone up, and hopefully discouraging the intruder. Obviously, routes from bedrooms to bathroom should not be monitored.

As for keeping a phone in the bedroom - consider keeping a cell phone there with no service on it. All cell phones can dial 911 - even if there is no service on the phone. Most people have an old bagphone or two that they're no longer using. If this is something that you might do - consider that if you use a cell phone that has been in a closet, sitting unused for a length of time - that the battery might not be able to hold a charge. This means that you should either get a new battery (or batteries), or keep a reliable power source in your bedroom (probably in the closet or under the bed) - to power said phone. The most ideal thing to use is one of those wireless jump start things that you charge and has cables to attach to your car when emergency jump-starting. All of the models I've seen have 12V DC accessory jacks built-in on them. You could keep this constantly charging in your home - so that if your power is disconnected, you can still use your cell phone. Also, most of these jump start things have flashlights built-in as well - which is good. I am a fan of flashlights. Obviously, if there is no cell service in your area - this would be of little help. In this situation - I can only recommend good conduit for your phone line(s).

Basically, there are many simple, inexpensive things you can do to GREATLY improve home safety. A little added inconvenience (such as locking bedroom doors at night) goes a VERY LONG way when it comes to nighttime security, in my opinion.

I hope this helps.

TD

 

[abaddon]

Having the kids come to you also poses the additional difficulty that some of them do and some don't. This leaves you divided, which is very bad. Even if your kids ALWAYS come when asked, what if they don't wake up to the sounds of an intruder. An intercom system could work, but I know of a lot of kids that would sleep right through it. Yelling won't work because the bg's will hear you too.

Jeff

 

[jrhead75]

I'd say make sure both adults are armed, and go to the kids upstairs. Gather in and secure the room with the exit hole, either by leaving one armed adult in the room w/hole, while the other goes for the other kids, or moving in one group, depending on training/comfort level. With both adults armed, you have some flexibility in movement with an armed adult both leading and trailing.

Kind of hard to be more precise without an actual floorplan.

 

[MaterDei]

Thanks all for the advice so far.

Tadyson. Where can I buy those $10 motion detectors you mentioned? I like that idea.

jrhead75, funny you should mention a floorplan. I made one up specifically for this email but I did it in Excel and didn't realize until I tried to attach it that THR doesn't accept .xls attachments. I'll see if I can save it in something that will work and attach it.

 

[MaterDei]

The floorplan is attached. This is the upstairs. As stated before the 'trap door' would open up into my closet directly below which is where I currently have my weapons, Surefire, cell phone, etc.

Sorry about the quality, the only tool I had available here at work is MS Paint

:

 

[abaddon]

When I was a kid I would have LOVED to have a trapdoor in my closet. (Even if it went into my parent's room.) Make sure they understand not to put anything on top of it though. That could cause problems.

Jeff

 

[MaterDei]

I had planned on covering the hole with the existing berger style carpet. I would pull up the tack strips that hold the carpet in place and attach a handle to the corner of the carpet to facilitate quick removal. If you think this is a mistake let me know.

You are right regarding the ness of the trap door. Though they know that other than for practice I will not allow them to use it, they like the idea.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Remember the KISS principle: Keep it simple, sweetheart.

Kids will NOT reliably come when called, keep doors locked after midnight potty trips, etc.

Before you get into building trapdoors and ladders... Do you have an alarm system? Do you have good, motion-controlled exterior lighting? Solid-core doors, deadbolt locks, reinforced strike plates? Well-trimmed shrubbery? Locked windows? These things will greatly reduce the chance that a bad guy will even try to get in.

If it takes time and noise for a bad guy to enter, then a) he probably will run when the alarm starts wailing, or 2) you'll have time to call 911 and then mount an effective defense.

Someone breaking into your house probably wants your VCR, not your kids. And they'd prefer that you sleep through the experience.

These things aren't as tacticool as shootin' your way out, but they are safer and more realistic ways to protect your family.

While you're at it, have you checked the batteries in the smoke detectors? Got fire extinguishers? These things are way important too, as are seat belts, locking your car doors whilde driving, etc.

I am currently reading, and recommend, a book called "Be Alert, Be Aware, Have A Plan" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1585745774) by Neal Rawls with Sue Kocach. It is full of practical, tactical advice about staying safe.

 

[hso]

Are you certain that the stairs are accurately depicted? They look to start at a perimeter wall and I'm confused by that. I have a "secret passage" from the master closet to my daughter's room and the closet lies over the foot of the stairs/breakfast nook. Spouse gets the child while partner points weapon down the stairs.

I agree with everyone else so far in that an upstairs rally point would be better.

Mount a motion sensor in the stairwell so that it switches on the lights in the stairwell when someone starts up the stairs.

Motion sensors down stairs are fine as long as no one goes to the kitchen for a snack. Set up wireless controls for your lights downstairs. This can be done with supplies from Radio Shack or Home Depot. This allows you to turn on the lights from your bed room (or any room you choose). With a control box in your room and another upstairs you could keep the upstars dark and light the down stairs remotely. If you're like my family the motion sensor alarms would get tripped frequently enough to be history very quickly. If you don't have a dog and no one is alergic I'd add one. A friendly pooch that would raise a fuss if someone she didn't know came in the house unannounced.

 

[jrhead75]

Okay, off the top of my pointy head, assuming BGs downstairs...

Two armed parents up through trap door to boys' room. Block t/d as best you can, get one boy watching t/d, another on cell phone to police. Mom covers stairs from boys' room doorway, while dad crosses to #1 girls' room, wakes her, and covers stairs while girl #1 goes and wakes other two and gets them into the boys' room. Mom at doorway covers girls' movement, then Dad's retreat into boys' room, Mom then goes to cover trap door while Dad covers stairs while awaiting po po.

An escape ladder in that room would also be a good idea in case things get even hairier.

 

[MaterDei]

hso,

The floorplan diagram was done in MS Paint in 5 minutes. It is not scaled properly. Sorry if the picture confuses.

Mpayne. You asked,

Do you have an alarm system? Do you have good, motion-controlled exterior lighting? Solid-core doors, deadbolt locks, reinforced strike plates? Well-trimmed shrubbery? Locked windows?

. Yes, I have done all that I can to try and keep them out. Eventually, however, they WILL get in. Locked windows, for example, are easily busted.

You also said "Someone breaking into your house probably wants your VCR, not your kids. And they'd prefer that you sleep through the experience. " I respect your opinion but disagree strongly and hope that you aren't planning your defensive plan around this assumption. I have been on the wrong end of a home invasion before and trust me, they weren't only after our VCR and they didn't want us to not know they were there. I won't go into the details of the event here but if you want to read about what you might be faced with and need to be prepared for go here.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42614

My post is about two-thirds of the way down the page.

Trust me. I'm not making these arrangements to be 'tacticool', as you suggested.

 

[Sharpie1]

MaterDei

Tadyson. Where can I buy those $10 motion detectors you mentioned? I like that idea.

Lowe's, Home Depot, Radio Shack

I reiterate (to the possible chagrin of others) that NO ONE should be moving [except parents in extreme situations] during a possible home intrusion.

Keep all doors locked and stay in contact with each other via the intercoms, and if possible - allow your 16 year old to be armed [if he has had proper training].

TD

 

[tetleyb]

Here is my take, a slightly different point of view. I personally don't like being backed into a corner with no escape routes. Going upstairs makes it difficult to escape, if said need would arise. Unless there were some sort of quick, easy, ladder setup out of a second story window.

Downstairs there are several more easily accessable escape routes. Namely front door, rear door, etc.

The idea of being locked in a room, with wife/children, doesn't appeal to me all that much.

Just an opinion.

 

[jrhead75]

I reiterate (to the possible chagrin of others) that NO ONE should be moving [except parents in extreme situations] during a possible home intrusion.

Keep all doors locked and stay in contact with each other via the intercoms, and if possible - allow your 16 year old to be armed [if he has had proper training].

All well and good in a normal self defence situation, except that here you're dealing with 6 very probably panicked young children. If you are lucky enough to have a 16 year old mature and well trained enough to entrust with the defense of your children, he/she would very likely be saddled with trying to control 5 other scared kids trying to get to mommy and daddy, as well as defending against BGs.

Downstairs there are several more easily accessable escape routes. Namely front door, rear door, etc.

True, but then you're faced with making the kids come to you, and as above, getting panicky children to respond to instruction is a lot like herding cats.

I reiterate, with absolutely no chagrin... You have a very direct route to your kids, use it. Get to a defensable position, have an escape provision (escape ladder), and wait for the police to show (cell phone). I can't imagine that's a worse strategy than having your children scattered all over the place, and possibly moving through the house trying to get to you.

 

[Mike Irwin]

With 6 kids arm them all and you have your own platoon!

 

[mrming]

intercoms will be useless if power is cut. Standard wired phones will be useless if they cut the phone line.

If such exists, I'd suggest family frequencey hand held radios. I'd try and locate a set with a built in battery charger. Leave them on, one per bedroom (and plugged in so the batterys dont empty) and you'll have covered your reliable communication needs.

If this is truely needful, I would suggest installation of a exterior grade faux wrought iron gate at the base of the stairs. Alternative would be a double core door at either the foot or top.

To be brief. 16 is old enough to be a marine. Arm the eldest child, let him lock them in each night. Don't open it till morning. In the event of an intruder.. well, they can't get upstairs without significant effort. If time permits for a intruder alarm to be sounded, there is only one entry way and its already blocked plus allows weapons fire through if needed. My only major concern would be keeping the younger ones out of the play area during such. The only big cavets would be can they be trusted to pull the trigger, AND to keep everyone in place until the correct 'all clear' is given no matter what. Fire escape is easily provided by chain ladders out the windows.

Provisions for you and the wife are up to you. My question for you is fairly basic. If a aggressive robber bypassed upstairs, managed to surprise and restrain you and the wife. Whats to stop them from ransacking the closet, finding a 'secret passage' and crawling up it in search of loot?

One entry point is defendable. Your suggesting adding a second, unsecurable entryway. If you do make it securable on the 2nd floors side.. then it has no use as a escapeway for you and the wife. If nothing else, at least gateway the stairs to the upper level and give the only key to the eldest. If you and wife are taken, you can't be forced to give up access. I know you'd want to be with the kids, but you probably wouldn't have time to make it to them. Let them be secure and out of play. The biggest problem this could cause is access in event of fire or medical problems upstairs. But with you and wife on the ground floor, they already have to be responsible for themselves to a degree.

 

[Sharpie1]

MRMING

If you will carefully read my recommendation about intercoms, you will notice that I said that intercoms WITH BATTERY BACKUP should be used.

You stated that intercoms would be useless without power, but please take note that batteries ARE independent power sources. That means that they are not dependent on a power source, such as utility AC power. The intercoms would run mainly on AC power, but when unavailable for whatever reason, they would automatically switch to the battery.

TD

 

[Quartus]

Don't forget to install a phone in the boys' room so you can call 911

Yeah, but have a cell phone. I'm with Denney - go to your kids. You can't run with little ones. Stay and defend.


You have a decent sized family - congratulations!

 

[mrming]

Tadyson: Ok, a battery backup powered wireless intercom system, but normally powered by AC. I'm not seeing a huge advantage over rechargeable walk-talkies, and would be surprised if they were cheaper. Depending on what RF they use, it could overlap with neighborhood wireless phones. Not sure you really want everyone hearing your family arguements... but someone probably makes them in the FRS range too. Biggest flaw I see in using an intercom system, is it would let any intruders know there *are* potential hostages upstairs. cell phones/handhelds limit if not eliminate this problem.

 

[Sharpie1]

mrming

I have used several different brands of wireless intercom systems. Interference with other families is not [usually] a problem. They normally don't work on RF only - that is, they aren't designed like baby monitors. Two-way radio reception however may be picked up by anyone in the vicinity with a same-band radio, or anyone with a $50 scanner. Anyone who has used the little FRS radios knows that many other people use them as well, and there is often traffic on the channels that interfere with conversations.

Yes, I'm sure they [the radios] would work, but even the simplest of the new FRS radios have several channels, and a 5 year old may not be able to use them as effectively as pressing a "talk" button on an intercom. In fact, most intercom systems have a "listen" button. In other words, if I were in the bedroom and communicating with someone in another bedroom, I would hold down the "talk" button, speak my message, then hold down the "listen" button to hear a reply. This way, the children - or whoever is on the other end needn't do anything but speak. They wouldn't even have to be at the intercom itself. As long as they were in the room, even from their beds - their reply could be heard.

In my opinion, the thing to keep in mind through all of this is simplicity and efficiency. You do of course want to discuss with your family what action should be taken if an intruder were suspected - but you don't want a 20 step checklist that has to be followed, or anything that depends on the children taking measures such as quietly going into a certain room, etc. This requires too much coordination on everyone's part. Simply put, the less moving around, the better. The occupants of the home will be newly awakened, but you can bet the intruders will be VERY alert. If someone is moving at all or investigating a sound, it should be an adult. I would not advise anyone to have ANY children running around or moving at all inside the home if a home invasion was suspected. The best place for a child during all of this is behind a solid locked door. This is just my opinion.

TD

 

[mrming]

tadyson: I think we differ on prefered method of communication, but agree that perhaps forgetting the closet hole, and providing some sort of re-enforced entryway at the staircase would protect the kids. If the door can only be locked from the inside, and only the eldest one or two have the key.. tada, kids are safe, secure, and not wandering about. If they have to flee still, chain fire ladders can be tossed out the window.

No one will gain accidental access to the kids, the kids are already setup to defend themselves, AND half the house is taken out of play so the parents are only handling the first floor.

 

[Kobun]

I would start with the outside of the house first.
1. Good locks and deadbolts on all outside doors.
2. Locks on all windows on ground level.
3. Remove any trees or objects that can be used to climb to the second floor.
4. If you have a ladder outside, chain it to the house or something so it cant be used.
5. Get motion detector lights! This has scared away several people from entering my back yard! I've seen tracks in the snow. One time the tracks turned around when they came into the area my sensors cover, and then they broke into my neighbours house. To avoid exposure going through my yard again, they kicked a hole through a fense.
6. Wire the motion detector lights so that when one triggers, they all og off. If you need help with the wiring, I'll be glad to help.
7.Get a dog.