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Urgent warning: BATFE is on a rampage nationwide - READ!

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Jim March, May 10, 2003.

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  1. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    There's a live thread active right now titled "Gun-Runners, Beware":

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21822

    What's really going on, according to a tip I've recieved, is that the old BATF has been yanked from the Treasury department and has been shifted to Justice. In the process, the BATF bureaucrats have been ordered to justify their positions by Ashcroft and company.

    So they're looking for as many fast gun busts as they can make, even if they're not solid. A case might get tossed in a year or two, but meanwhile it adds to the stats showing that the particular department is "accomplishing something".

    The peak of the "enforcement" activity is in the East and South, but expect it to spread nationwide. "Stings" at gun shows will be heightened, there'll be more inspections of FFLs, they'll be pulling *anything* they can.

    LOOK OUT.

    My source is VERY solid but must remain anon.

    Spread this far and wide.
     
  2. *8*

    *8* Member

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    Jim,

    You are correct, the good folks at ATF moved to the Justice department and renamed the agency, ATFE. FFL holders were notified last year regarding the change and whatnot.

    I believe enforcement is somewhat the same as before. In the past the good folks at ATFe weren't "publicly" announcing it, unlike today.
     
  3. Kharn

    Kharn Member

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    Jim: Thanks for the info, this probably explains the ATF's recent quest to seize all sorts of parts kits (FALs, PPSHs, etc). Linked on FalFiles here.

    My FFL was audited on Thursday, he said he had a hell of a time convincing the FBI (his words, more likely it was the ATF) that it was legal for him to have a bare FAL reciever that he was waiting for me to come by and fill out the paperwork on.

    Kharn
     
  4. Blain

    Blain member

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    So this expains why my friend got a "mysterious call" asking him if he wanted to buy a "Survival" package which included, an M14 (orAK47, or M16), 12 gernades, a rocket launcher or bazooka, a pistol, and a gas mask! The "Seller" had found my friends info from a online petition he had signed. He offered all the above for 2k!

    Then he threatened to "Put a cap in his head" if he went to the police or feds. He also denied being a fed, but come on! Who would be so stupid as to call up random people and ask them to buy illegal weapons?

    Damn feds must be getting desperate!
     
  5. cpileri

    cpileri Member

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    blain

    If that phone call happened in MD, you could tape the call and bring it in to the police- and be the only regular civillian in the state that has a CCW.
     
  6. Kharn

    Kharn Member

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    cpileri:
    IIRC, MD doesnt allow recording of a phone conversation without both parties knowing about it. Thats how Linda Trip got in trouble during the Clinton Impeachment.

    Kharn
     
  7. cpileri

    cpileri Member

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    no kiddin

    Hmm, well...
    it would have to be one of those 'the-answering-machine-picks-up-just-before-you-do-and-records-the-whole-thing' kind of serendipitous calls.

    May not be admissible in court, but it may get you 'documented evidence of an ongoing threat to your life" which is one of the very few ways to be graced with a ccw in MD.

    If its entrapment that's happening, I say get our local guys involved: I know a couple and I really like them; super people, great family, etc- not at all the stereotyped JBT so often mentioned on THR. (Never once mentioned guns around them, I don't even think they care. They are actually relatively gentle people, for lack of a better term.)
    So the local guys look into it, find out who it is and it goes nowhere. But at least it will stop.

    So report them: if its a real badguy threatening your head with a new cap, you're better off to report it. If its the other situation, you at least stopped the calls.
    C-
     
  8. Blain

    Blain member

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    Welll....I got post the e-mail here if you would like to see it. He said something else like "and I WILL find you" (if I tell). Question: CAN feds doing a sting threaten to kill you? I have heard that yes they can (playing tough) and no they can't.

    I also used to think that they couldn't deny being cops or feds, but that is WRONG! They can and do deny being affiliated with the police and Federal government.
     
  9. cpileri

    cpileri Member

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    yeah do it

    Please post it! Sorta curious, sorta concerned.
    C-
     
  10. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    They can tell pretty much any lie they want, though you can later try to use entrapment as a defense. When the Illinois AG's office ran an internet sting last year, they told the suspects that what they wanted to do was not against the law. Some of the poor fools needed three or four very persuasive messages to convince them that if they just broke a gun down into parts they could send it directly to a buyer without going through an FFL. Then they were arrested.

    Paranoia is sometimes embarrassing, but it's not a bad idea where federal law enforcement is concerned.

    So was this a phone call to your friend or an email to you?
     
  11. Erik

    Erik Member

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    So... Don't break the law. OK.
     
  12. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    No. They can try to talk you into doing something illegal of your own free will. That may or may not be considered entrapment. By threatening you, you no longer are making the choice based on free will but due to coercion.

    Like Eric said, just don't knowingly break the law. If you're not sure about the legality, don't do it regardless of how good it sounds.
     
  13. CZ-75

    CZ-75 member

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    What if you don't know all 7.8 x 10E9 of them? :rolleyes:

    An undercover fed tells you it's okay and you're on a one-way trip to Leavenworth. Gotcha!
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2003
  14. SodaPop

    SodaPop member

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    RUBY RIDGE :fire:
     
  15. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Let me clarify something here: they're looking for "quantity over quality" of busts. You do NOT have to actually break the law to get roped into this. They don't care if the busts hold up in court later - they're looking for raw numbers right now, in an effort to save their jobs.

    And no way in HELL are they going to alert the media to what they're doing - they're looking to trap the ignorant or unwary into anything that smells even slightly shady. They don't even want Ashcroft catching on to what's going on here - it's not directly Ashcroft's "fault", it's not something those high up in Justice want - this is happening because they've asked these "incoming departments" (to Justice) to justify their jobs and they didn't realize what a bunch of slimeballs they were taking in and how said slime would react to the "justification requirement".

    Said slimeballs are facing the unemployment lines if they don't come up with something right this minute.

    So check six!
     
  16. .45Ruger

    .45Ruger Member

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    It wold be kind of comical for someone to record one of these conversations and then contact the local ATFE office. Imagine the red faces on the Fed's when they find out that they are investigating their own sting operation.
     
  17. tyme

    tyme Member

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    In other news, Customs and the Dept. of Agriculture are reporting increased seizures of giant Italian hogs...
     
  18. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    Then you shouldnt be in the business....

    WildtakeprideinyourjobanddoitrightAlaska
     
  19. Geech

    Geech Member

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    You can't be serius, Alaska. Not even cops know all the laws, and they enforce them. Hell, lawyers and judges don't have them memorized, why do you think they have all of those shelves of legal texts in their offices.
     
  20. Pendragon

    Pendragon Member

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    I like how on COPS or whatever, they do a sting and the mark asks the UC "are you in law enforcement in any way?" as if that is the magic question that all LEO must answer truthfully - lol.

    THE POLICE LIE.

    They are allowed to lie in certain circumstances. Some may find it habit forming.
     
  21. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    I am serious..

    First of all legal texts are possesed by judges and lawyers to help them interpret "gray areas" of the law. Certain things are not amenable to interpretion. I can assure you that most lawyers know the terms and meanings of the statutes involved in their areas of specialty. I can also assure you that most criminal defense lawyers have their applicable penal codes almost memorized.

    Next, the laws surrounding gun dealers are not all that complicated or difficult. Further, its a gun business. You should be practcing "defensive" operatios, just like a Doctor practices "defensive medicine". Your paperwork should alwys be filled out properly. You should decline suspicious sales.

    Now I happen to agree with Jim that its a sheer numbers game at this point in time for the ATF...but who is gonna be the victim of their numbers game...??

    Answer...the "easy dealer"...easy in the context of being easy for the agents...

    Consider..Store A sells high grade rifles and shotguns. An SKS or Lorcin never degrades his premises. His paperwork is impeccable. Hes never had a "crime trace". He alwys cooperates with the ATF.

    Store B is run by a Mall Ninja with an attitude. They will sell anyhting to make a buck. Their premises look like a Somali bazaar. Half the crime traces in a tri state area come from them. Thei paperwork looks like its been prepared and filed by monkeys.

    Now who do you think will be targeted? Yep its wrong, becasue Shop B may be innocent, but darn, its sure gonna be easy...

    WilddoyourjobrightAlaska
     
  22. Geech

    Geech Member

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    So, make up your mind. Does store B not deserve to be in business or is it wrong for the ATFe to pick on them?
     
  23. 12-34hom

    12-34hom Member

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    Jim March , Name your source.

    12-34hom.
     
  24. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    The Batf-men could do some real crime stop'n and go into the projects in L.A., S.F., N.Y., Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, and even at home at Wash, D.C. to clean up crime. Nah, the kiddies & drug dealers shoot back.:rolleyes:
     
  25. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    12-34hom: I can't. I wish to hell I could. I'm even having to hold back specifics on a series of cases.

    Stop and think about this: in the CCW wars, people ask me to review their "good causes" and similar personal info all the time. Would you want me to be the kind of guy who divulges information that could embarass somebody or get them in trouble?
     
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