US Army looking for a new pistol

Status
Not open for further replies.

Spieler

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2003
Messages
650
Location
McDonough, GA, USA
From the Army Times

The push for more pistol punch
Army tests new ammo, technology in search for future handgun

By Matthew Cox
Times staff writer


The Army is testing potent pistol ammo, including .45-caliber rounds, as a possible alternative for 9mm, the M9 pistol round often criticized for its lack of stopping power.
Since World War I, the 9mm cartridge has seen action in conflicts all over the world and is the standard pistol caliber for NATO forces. Still, soldiers have questioned the performance of the lightweight ammunition since the Army chose it as a replacement for the combat-proven .45 two decades ago.

Continued complaints from soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan since the war on terrorism began prompted officials at the Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga., to take a serious look at alternatives to the M9 pistol.

“The feeling is that we need to assess a caliber beyond the 9mm,†said Maj. Glenn Dean, chief of the small arms division at Benning, citing the most common complaint from soldiers: “We’d like more stopping power.â€

;Complaints about reliability and a lack of accessories also prompted Dean’s office, the Army’s proponent for small arms, to scour the commercial pistol market last summer for off-the-shelf options for a Future Handgun System. “We are assessing the current technology to define what a future handgun should do, and send it to the Army,†Dean said.

As a combat developer, Dean’s job is to stay on top of the needs of soldiers and turn them into future small-arms requirements for the Army.

Since the U.S. military began operations in Afghanistan in 2001, small-arms officials at Benning have talked to soldiers who say they have little confidence in the M9 9mm in the combat zone, Dean said.

Under the Soldier Enhancement Program, Benning officials began looking for solutions on the commercial market. They started out with about 85 different semi-automatic handguns from major manufacturers such as Glock, Sigarms Inc. and Smith & Wesson.

The goal, though, was not to find a perfect pistol, Dean said. Instead, 14 pistols, in a mix of 9mm, .40 and .45 calibers, were selected for soldiers to shoot, so small-arms officials could study how individual features such as calibers and safety devices performed, Dean said.

Ten soldiers participated in two weeks of shooting tests. They were men and women, commissioned and noncommissioned officers. Their job specialties ranged from infantrymen and military police to drill sergeants and signal soldiers.

Officials examined collected data such as shot placement, qualification scores, reliability and safety, Dean said. Other factors studied included how fast soldiers could recover from the shot recoil, aim and shoot again.

Some of the features examined in the test that could show up in the Future Handgun System proposal are based on past complaints about the M9, Dean said. Some of these include magazine releases that can be operated easier while wearing cold-weather gloves and safeties and decocking devices mounted on the pistol frame rather than the slide for simpler, one-handed operation.

The test also looked at pistols like the M9 that feature double-action/single-action operation versus single- and double-action-only models.

The M9 allows soldiers to shoot in double-action mode — pulling the trigger with the hammer in the down position — and in single-action mode, in which the hammer is cocked to the rear before the first shot to make the trigger easier to pull. Revolutionary improvements in triggers over the past five years could fix this, Dean said.

In both modes, the hammer remains in the rear position after each shot and requires a decocking device that lets the soldier drop the hammer safely while a round is in the chamber when the shooting is over.

A double-action-only operation eliminates the need for a decocker since the hammer remains in the down position after each shot, Dean said.

The data gathered from the experiment will likely be ready sometime in March, Dean said. If his office decides to make a recommendation, Dean said it could go before the senior leadership by this summer.

If the Army decides to move forward, weapons developers hope to invite commercial pistol makers to participate in an open competition to select a new service pistol.

“We do expect to release a [request for proposal] by late summer for a Future Handgun System,†said Col. Michael Smith, the head of Army’s Project Manager Soldier Weapons. “It really is an exciting time.â€

Dean remains optimistic but knows that the program will have to compete against other expensive programs, including an effort to replace the Army’s M16s and M249 squad automatic weapons.

“The challenge is actually getting the requirement approved,†Dean said. “To be realistic, no army has won a war based on a pistol.â€

Many see fewer pistols in the Army’s future, Dean said, describing how ultralight, compact carbines may replace pistols for tank crewmen and other soldiers who operate in tight places.

On the other hand, carrying a pistol as a backup weapon has always been a top priority among American soldiers.

“Ever since the Revolutionary War, all the soldiers have wanted a pistol and a big knife,†said Charlie Pavlick, project officer for individual and special purpose weapons. “Soldiers have found ways to get them whether they were authorized them or not.â€

But the Army’s current pistol has never truly won the confidence of soldiers since the Army chose it as a replacement for the M1911A1 .45 automatic pistol in 1985.

The lighter 9mm round gave soldiers 15 rounds, compared to the seven-round capacity of the 1911. But it came at a cost of knock-down power.

The Army adopted the M1911A1 to fill the need for greater stopping power after the .38 service revolver often failed to put down determined Moro warriors during the Philippine Insurrection at the turn of the century.

Soldier complaints about the M9 often deal with unreliable magazines and a lack of mountable accessories such as some type of integrated laser sight system, Dean said.

Special operations soldiers are the ones using pistols most often in combat, but a desire for more hitting power, Dean said, is a common complaint his office could not ignore.

“There is a certain percentage of those comments, we think are echoing other comments, but we have heard it enough from folks that are actually operators,†Dean said

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-705222.php
 
When I first joined the Army back in 85 we traded in our .45s for 9mm, most soldiers I talk to who were in prior to the change would prefer going back to .45s
 
Ah, relearning old lessons - big holes are better stopers than small holes. Something learned by the Army 100 years ago in the Philippines.
 
I think one of the reasons for going 9 was because it's a more common Nato round and when over-seas easier to re-stock on, but sticking with that logic our M16s/M4s should be shooting 7.62 instead of the current 5.56.
 
I second Natedogs statement. With some good +P or +P+ JHPs it would be much cheaper, and the M9 Beretta would be a much more potent weapon, as long as the slides didn't crack :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
American arms makers need to get their a$$'s in gear and provide some American designed and made weapons. Our tax dollars need to stay here, not overseas.
 
American arms makers need to get their a$$'s in gear and provide some American designed and made weapons. Our tax dollars need to stay here, not overseas.

Ruger, Colt, S&W or one of the smaller ones? The American companies are all clearly followers not leaders when it comes to innovatie handguns. Its odd though considering we are the largest consumer of privately (and maybe goverment) owned handguns in the world. Unless they readopt the 1911 it will almost have to be a foreign designed weapon. Probably a German or Austrian one.
 
US Arms for US forces

I'm with you Ky Larry.
I find it almost embarassing that the US military utilizes pistols from a foreign company, US made or not. With the largest handgun market in the world, a long history of arms designing and manufacturing, a US manufacturer should be able to field a competitive design.
Should the military revert back to the .45 perhaps the new Ruger P345 might be a good candidate?
 
Ten soldiers participated in two weeks of shooting tests. They were men and women, commissioned and noncommissioned officers. Their job specialties ranged from infantrymen and military police to drill sergeants and signal soldiers.

Officials examined collected data such as shot placement, qualification scores, reliability and safety, Dean said. Other factors studied included how fast soldiers could recover from the shot recoil, aim and shoot again.


To me that would be a very interesting study to gander at.
 
Well.......to pretty much sum things up......

If the Government is involved expect: delays, cost overruns, mismanagement, and just downright pig-headed stupidity.

I think it was stupid to get rid of the 1911 in the first place. Pretty much the gov't. replaced what worked with something that now needs to be replaced; but why should they care - it's not their money.

I suppose we will soon see 1,000's of M9's on the market thru the CMP now that they may be "surplus". Yeah right! Who do I think I'm kidding. If the gov't. replaced these pistols and phased them out, some jerk in congress will pass a "Public Safety Law" that will cause these surplus handguns to be destroyed to protect the public from having the streets flooded with low cost military weapons. Who cares how much $$ CASH $$ this will bring our deficit ridden country.

If you think I'm wrong, then tell me how many surplus Hum-Vees you see on the road?. NONE. The gov't destroys all used Hum-Vees because they judged them unsuitable for civilian use. (Arnold Swarzenegger is the only civilian who owns an actual Hum-Vee, as far as I know).

A closing thought....

Q. What is the definition of a camel?.

A. A Horse designed by a government committee.
 
I still think US gun makers are just as good as the foreign ones. I think its the perceived notion that US goods are just not as good as foreign ones. Its obvious in the auto world and the same in the gun world.
 
What about something like the FN 5.7X28? Or the 5.56 Boz (I think that's what it was called).
 
It would make it a lot cheaper for us too.

How would going to $0 or 357Sig, make it cheaper for us. Like it has been said, the problem isn't 9mm. The problem is the FMJ. I just don't think the service members are going to really gain anything by going to a 40S&W or 45acp ball cartridge. And if you really look at it, in testing and actual use, the 9mm ball round penetrates barriers better than 45acp.
 
The most common complaint about the M9 is unreliability caused by lousy magazines , that is not the pistol's problem but rather a procurement problem . I recall seeing a report concerning weapons used in OEF and there was a note that most people who criticized the M9 had not actually used it in combat and the same complaints regarding the 9mm's relative power carried over to the 5.56 . The deceased horse in now pulp but the 9mm FMJ and .45ACP FMJ have relative merits and demerits but the bottom line issue that _no_ pistol round is ideal for purely military purposes . You really can't have it all , the SAW is in the same position : complaints that the 5.56 round is too light but the 7.62 M248 is too heavy and too large : maybe the answer is to pick 2 new rounds somewhere between them so that the 9mm , 5.56 , .45 and 7.62 proponents can all agree on something .
 
FMJ ammo in a .357 sig or 5.7mm would probably actually work worse than FMJ 9mm in the stopping power dept.

Im not the biggest fan of 45's, but if I had to trust my life to a handgun shooting FMJ, I would want a 45.
 
Limit the Competetion

One thing sure... the competetion for a replacement for the useless Beretta and it's dimunitive 9mm cartridge should exclude any product made in countries that did not support the U.S. in the war.

The U.S. would be well served to go back to the 1911 pistol. Colt's, Smith & Wesson, Kimber to name a few could provide the product easily enough. If we get another 75 years of service out of the new guns they will be a great buy indeed.

A plus to going back to the 1911 is the fact the Army has something on the order of 200,000 1911s in storage... (a fair number of them unserviceable.) It would be easy enough to issue a contract to refurbish these guns for a quick start on deploying 1911 type guns.

FWIW

Chuck
 
The "hits" just keep coming.

I'm almost numb to it anymore.

So much of this could be fixed with training. A guy who has only shot his pistol 50 times is not going to have faith in ANY pistol you give him.

Part of the reason our small arms industry is behind other countries are that ours are not gov't sponsored.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top