Island Beretta
Member
I would recommend to them the Beretta PX4 in .45ACP,.40S&W or 9mm parabellum..
US Army looking for a new pistol
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SWMAN
Member
For what its worth, Marshall & Sanow provided numbers in their latest book "Stopping Power" that the 9mm NATO FMJ out penetrates the .45 FMJ. Of course, penetration vs transferred energy as the source of stopping power is what the usual "heated discussions" of what constitutes stopping power is all about. All I can say with certainty is that I was in the service when we had the 1911 and when we got the M9 and the M9 was much easier for me to shoot in terms of comfort, i.e. no hammer bite. As a civilivan, I have a couple 1911s and a Beretta 92FS in my collection. My carry gun is a 1911 w/HP. With ball, I'd rather have the biggest slug I can fire at an enemy.
natedog
Member
The 5.7mm is up to debate (not sure on consistent fragmentation or tumbling). But how could a .357 Sig bullet of the same weight and diameter that's traveling 300FPS faster than the 9x19mm be less effective?
jefnvk
Member
I'm in the camp that says go back to what worked. The 1911 is great. Reservice the ones we have, and make new ones. Shoulda followed the old saying 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'
I'd be curious at how often people are needing to penetrate bariers with a pistol.
I'd be curious at how often people are needing to penetrate bariers with a pistol.
A pistol is NOT for penetrating barrier....isn't that what rifle or .50cal bmg is for?
If they are going to .40 S&W or any other, then it'll be the same story soon...lack of stopping power, not penetrating enough, yada, yada, yada, yada...
If they are going to .40 S&W or any other, then it'll be the same story soon...lack of stopping power, not penetrating enough, yada, yada, yada, yada...
TamThompson
Member
What Bad LT said! The Army needs to google "Moro Rebellion Phillipines." (sp?)
Or, just go out and plink at some cans with a 9mm, a .40 S&W, and a .45acp. Or go to a bowling pin match with those guns. They'll find out real quick.
There's an answer here, and it's been lost in history and dadgummed political correctness, but it needs to be found again:
.45acp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or, just go out and plink at some cans with a 9mm, a .40 S&W, and a .45acp. Or go to a bowling pin match with those guns. They'll find out real quick.
There's an answer here, and it's been lost in history and dadgummed political correctness, but it needs to be found again:
.45acp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Krag
Member
It has been documented that the .45 revolvers the army issued in the Philippines did little better then the .38 when it came to stopping Juramentado suicide warriors. What worked was the M1897 Winchester riot gun loaded with 00 buckshot! 
According to Marshall and Sanow the 9mm 115 gr. FMJ and 230 gr. .45 FMJ have one shot stopping rates in the 62/63% range with the 9mm actually being better. Being the 124 gr. 9mm NATO is hotter then commercial 115 gr. ammo I imagine it might be even better? I think the basic problem is bullet placement and not bullet diameter. Better marksmanship training (oh my heavens!
) would probably solve the problem.
And IMHO the chances of the army re-adopting the M1911 and .45 cartridge range from nil to zero. Those people who think so are living in a dreamworld.
According to Marshall and Sanow the 9mm 115 gr. FMJ and 230 gr. .45 FMJ have one shot stopping rates in the 62/63% range with the 9mm actually being better. Being the 124 gr. 9mm NATO is hotter then commercial 115 gr. ammo I imagine it might be even better? I think the basic problem is bullet placement and not bullet diameter. Better marksmanship training (oh my heavens!
) would probably solve the problem. And IMHO the chances of the army re-adopting the M1911 and .45 cartridge range from nil to zero. Those people who think so are living in a dreamworld.
natedog
Member
I supposed they'd be well prepared in stopping an army of bowling pins if the need arised.
No one seems to agree on how to measure "Stopping power", but you can measure penetration fairly easily. I wondering if this is what it will come down to and if so one of the weird 5.56 kinda pistol things might be top dog in any competition...
I've owned three 1911's (down to one) and all work perfectly well, My bet though would be you will see the Garand replace the M-16 before you see a 1911 adopted as the new general service pistol though.
I've owned three 1911's (down to one) and all work perfectly well, My bet though would be you will see the Garand replace the M-16 before you see a 1911 adopted as the new general service pistol though.
Old line from something or other: "He leaped upon his horse and galloped off in all directions at once".
Once upon a time virtually all cops carried some variation of a K frame Smith and they served them well. Same with the 1911 in the military.
Hell, I can't even keep track of all the "state-of-the-art" guns now flooding the market, and I don't think anyone else can either--much less determine with any objectivity which one is most supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. Sort of makes my head hurt.
Maybe a stainless 4" S&W N frame in .45 ACP with a 200 grain FMJ SWC?
Once upon a time virtually all cops carried some variation of a K frame Smith and they served them well. Same with the 1911 in the military.
Hell, I can't even keep track of all the "state-of-the-art" guns now flooding the market, and I don't think anyone else can either--much less determine with any objectivity which one is most supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. Sort of makes my head hurt.
Maybe a stainless 4" S&W N frame in .45 ACP with a 200 grain FMJ SWC?
Mountain Gunner
Member
I second the vote for a 10mm.
OEF_VET
Member
He's not. Several years back, a few dozen or so (I believe the number was 35.) Marine HMMWV's were released into the civilian market. They weren't supposed to be though. Apparently, somebody screwed up some paperwork and they fell through the proverbial "crack". I saw one driving down I-440 here in Nashville last year, with civilian plates and all. Also, IIRC, one of the owners of CavArms has or had one. IIRC, he put it up for sale last year when his wife told him she was pregnant.
As for the original story in the thread, I hope they do go back to .45 ACP. If they prefer a hi-capacity, double action, I'd like to see them pick the Para-Ordnance. No, it's not American-made, but it's still a dang fine pistol.
Another huge waste of all our tax dollars.....
Pistols are a small item in the big picture. It would be much more cost effective to buy good magazines for the M9s and take the money we're spending on this study and train our soldiers to use their M9s.
We're fielding a lot more pistols these days then we used to because of the nature of the conflict. But in most cases, we're not training our soldiers to use them effectively. It's true, there are reliability problems with many of the after market magazines that were bought from the low bidder to replace the ones supplied with the pistols when they wore out.
The fact of the matter is that only our Special Operations Forces really have a mssion essential need for larger caliber handguns. And that need is already being met.
For most of the other soldiers, a pistol is a badge of rank. Soldiers want them so they can strap it on and walk around the base camp and still meet the requirement to be armed. They are also handier to employ from a moving HMMWV then an M16 or M249.
Before we get all wrapped up in buying new weapons in a new caliber, lets try training our soldiers to use the ones we have.
Jeff
Pistols are a small item in the big picture. It would be much more cost effective to buy good magazines for the M9s and take the money we're spending on this study and train our soldiers to use their M9s.
We're fielding a lot more pistols these days then we used to because of the nature of the conflict. But in most cases, we're not training our soldiers to use them effectively. It's true, there are reliability problems with many of the after market magazines that were bought from the low bidder to replace the ones supplied with the pistols when they wore out.
The fact of the matter is that only our Special Operations Forces really have a mssion essential need for larger caliber handguns. And that need is already being met.
For most of the other soldiers, a pistol is a badge of rank. Soldiers want them so they can strap it on and walk around the base camp and still meet the requirement to be armed. They are also handier to employ from a moving HMMWV then an M16 or M249.
Before we get all wrapped up in buying new weapons in a new caliber, lets try training our soldiers to use the ones we have.
Jeff
It sounds to me like these soldiers don't understand that no matter what pistol they pick, it will be a poor stopper. Especially when there only other frame of reference is an M16 or heavy ordnance. Reliability complaints are another thing, but from everything I have heard a properly maintained M9 with good mags meets that requirement more than adequately.
Dionysusigma
Member
Why not pick something that satisfies both the requirements and preferences?
-American made
-American design
-.45 ACP
-Holds more than 7 rounds
I'm thinking the Rock Island double-stack .45...
-American made
-American design
-.45 ACP
-Holds more than 7 rounds
I'm thinking the Rock Island double-stack .45...
Rob96
Member
Well then you lose out on the American made part. Rock Islands are made in the Republic of the Phillippines.
Krag
Member
I shoot USPSA matches with a number of Special Forces types from Ft. Bragg. I've asked them about handguns and the majority tell me that they already have to hump too much gear around in the field and a light 9mm pistol is preferable to a heavy .45 - as is the ammo they fire. For urban fighting many favor the 12 ga. shotgun.
Most admit they never have, and probably never will, use a handgun in combat and many don't carry one. The weight saved is better used to carry more ammo, comm gear and/or water and rations.
These guys are damn fine shots with handguns and while they can carry just about anything they want in the field, few go the 1911s. Many like the M11 (SIG) and several find little fault with the M9 (Beretta) as long as they have good magazines. As one told me "...hit 'em where it counts and it doesn't matter much what you're shooting 'em with."
Most admit they never have, and probably never will, use a handgun in combat and many don't carry one. The weight saved is better used to carry more ammo, comm gear and/or water and rations.
These guys are damn fine shots with handguns and while they can carry just about anything they want in the field, few go the 1911s. Many like the M11 (SIG) and several find little fault with the M9 (Beretta) as long as they have good magazines. As one told me "...hit 'em where it counts and it doesn't matter much what you're shooting 'em with."
Rob96
Member
Pretty much the answer I received from Larry Vickers in an email. For a lot of people, the Beretta is a good gun. For me, the ergonomics aren't that great. I did qualify with it as an Air Force SP. They should have stuck with factory mags, instead of them specials they got.
Longbow
Member
For an all American pistol...
...I'll vote for the Ruger P series pistols. Even though I hate Ruger's politics, I surely admire his gun designs....well...okay, except the mini's!
Price and function Ruger guns are hard to beat.
But knowing how the goverment handles selection process (lowest bidder wins), they'll probably go for S&W Sigma.
...I'll vote for the Ruger P series pistols. Even though I hate Ruger's politics, I surely admire his gun designs....well...okay, except the mini's!
Price and function Ruger guns are hard to beat.
But knowing how the goverment handles selection process (lowest bidder wins), they'll probably go for S&W Sigma.
Nippy
Member
I vote SIG 220R!
Redneck Revolver
Member
i vote for para-ordances .50 GI 
that will penetrate AND stop whatever it hits...i will now leave before im charred to a crisp.
that will penetrate AND stop whatever it hits...i will now leave before im charred to a crisp.- Status