US Supreme Court:Case Touches a 2nd Amendment Nerve

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chieftain

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Gird your loins, we about to start the fight, again.

Go figure.

Fred

The New York Times:

November 13, 2007

Case Touches a 2nd Amendment Nerve

By LINDA GREENHOUSE

WASHINGTON, Nov. 12 — Both sides in a closely watched legal battle over the District of Columbia’s strict gun-control law are urging the Supreme Court to hear the case. If the justices agree — a step they may announce as early as Tuesday — the Roberts court is likely to find itself back on the front lines of the culture wars with an intensity unmatched even by the cases on abortion and race that defined the court’s last term.

The question is whether the Second Amendment to the Constitution protects an individual right to “keep and bear arms.” If the answer is yes, as the federal appeals court held in March, the justices must then decide what such an interpretation means for a statute that bars all possession of handguns and that requires any other guns in the home to be disassembled or secured by trigger locks.

The Supreme Court has never answered the Second Amendment question directly, and it has been nearly 70 years since the court even approached it obliquely. A decision in 1939, United States v. Miller, held that a sawed-off shotgun was not one of the “arms” to which the Second Amendment referred in its single, densely written, and oddly punctuated sentence: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Asked during his confirmation hearing what he thought that sentence meant, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. responded that the Miller decision had “side-stepped the issue” and had left “very open” the question of whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right as opposed to a collective right.

A three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, on which the chief justice formerly sat, ruled in March by a vote of 2 to 1 that “the right in question is individual,” not tied to membership in a state militia. On that basis, the court declared that the 31-year-old statute, one of the country’s strictest, was unconstitutional.

Gun-control advocates have long maintained that the amendment’s ambiguous opening reference to a “well regulated Militia” limited its scope to gun ownership in connection with service in a state militia. In the appeals court’s view, the clause simply highlighted one of the amendment’s “civic purposes.” Since the militias of the time included nearly all able-bodied white men, the court said, the amendment served the purpose of assuring that the citizenry would have guns at hand if called up, while also guaranteeing the right to keep arms even if the call never came.

The District of Columbia filed its Supreme Court appeal in September. The statute’s challengers, who brought their lawsuit in 2003 for the precise purpose of getting a Second Amendment case before the Supreme Court, promptly agreed that the case merited the justices’ attention.

The lawsuit was the creation of a wealthy libertarian, Robert A. Levy, senior fellow in constitutional studies at the Cato Institute, a prominent libertarian research organization. With the blessing of Cato, Mr. Levy financed the lawsuit and recruited six plaintiffs, all of whom wanted to keep handguns in their homes for self-defense. His goal was to present the constitutional issue to the Supreme Court in its most attractive form: not as a criminal appeal, as earlier Second Amendment cases, including the 1939 Supreme Court case, had been, but as an effort by law-abiding citizens to protect themselves. None asserted a desire to carry their weapons outside of their homes.

The strategy was almost too good: the appeals court threw out five of the six plaintiffs for lack of standing, on the ground that their objection to the law was merely abstract. Only one plaintiff remained: Dick Anthony Heller, a security guard at the building that houses the federal judicial system’s administrative offices, where he carries a handgun on duty. He had applied for and was denied a license to keep the gun at home. That encounter with the law was sufficiently concrete to give him standing, in the court’s view, and to allow the case, now called District of Columbia v. Heller, No. 07-290, to proceed.

The District of Columbia is not just another city, and its gun law has long been a major irritant to supporters of gun ownership around the country. The law was one of the first to be passed by the newly empowered District of Columbia in 1973, after it received home rule authority from Congress, where the gun lobby remains strong.

The District’s petition calls the case “quite literally a matter of life and death,” given the demonstrable dangers of handguns and the policy justifications for regulating them. The brief, filed by Linda Singer, the District’s attorney general, tells the justices that the appeals court made three errors.

First, it says, the Second Amendment’s text and history, properly understood, show that the amendment grants a right that “may be exercised only in connection with service in a state-regulated militia.”

Second, the brief observes that the amendment was drafted as a limitation on the authority of the federal government, not of the states, and that even if the District of Columbia is considered the equivalent of a state, “legislation limited to the District can pose no threat to the interests the Second Amendment was enacted to protect.”

Finally, the District of Columbia argues that even if gun ownership is an individual right, the handgun ban is amply justified as a “reasonable regulation” by considerations of public safety and health, as well as by the fact that the law permits ownership of other weapons.

The appeals court left the door open to “reasonable regulations,” like prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons, or weapons in particular locations, or the ownership of guns by felons. But a flat ban on a type of weapon cannot be considered reasonable, the court said.

Even though both sides are urging the court to hear the case, it is not a given that the justices will accept the invitation. On the polarized court, that might depend on whether justices who feel strongly on either side can be confident of prevailing. It might also depend on the justices’ collective appetite for injecting themselves into a controversy the court has avoided for so long.

The only justice to have expressed such an appetite is Clarence Thomas. In 1997, he wrote a concurring opinion in a decision invalidating a federal requirement for local sheriffs to perform background checks on gun buyers. The case concerned states’ rights, not the Second Amendment, but Justice Thomas took the opportunity to issue what was, in context, a surprising invitation. “This court has not had recent occasion to consider the nature of the substantive right safeguarded by the Second Amendment,” he said, and added: “Perhaps, at some future date, the court will have the opportunity.”

Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
 
We should know in an hour or less whether the court grants cert.
 
The article says a couple times that both sides are urging for it to be heard.
Isn't that not quite true?
If they don't hear it, doesn't that translate into a pretty big win for us?

Truthfully, I'd rather they didn't hear it - I'm not a gambling man.
 
the appeals court threw out five of the six plaintiffs for lack of standing, on the ground that their objection to the law was merely abstract.

I find this to be a tad disgusting, though.

Say I want to be a law-abiding citizen, so I follow the law, even though I don't believe it will pass Constitutional muster. By being a law-abiding citizen, I invalidate my right to challenge the laws under which I live. That right is reserved for criminals?

Okay, in this case, Heller did not break the law. However, in many, perhaps most, cases, he would have had to break the law in order to challenge it.

Sounds worthy of Joseph Heller, doesn't it?
 
Maybe if another liberal Justice goes and Bush appoints a conservative it MAY be a good idea to hear the case. It is always a gamble when the lawyers in black robes hear a case.
 
A conservative judge that looks like a Bushie zealot won't get confirmed this close to the election. Unless one justice dies, all will hold in place - IMHO.

Surprising that the conservative court is sitting on its hands. Probably because these conservatives are not really for individual rights that weaken the state - ya think?
 
Probably because these conservatives are not really for individual rights that weaken the state - ya think?
a few random thoughts.

courts are generally in no particular hurry to do anything.

might be one or more justices asked for some additional time to think about it.

maybe some justices are thinking that the lower court decided correctly so there is no need for them to take it up.

maybe some justices think it is too narrow of a scope to get worked up on and are waiting for the next one to make the big incorporation ruling and declare every american has the right to own machine guns made after 1986!
 
Dick Anthony Heller, a security guard at the building that houses the federal judicial system’s administrative offices, where he carries a handgun on duty.

This in particular looks to me as a potential way to functionally sidestep the issue relative to the general public.

Would have maybe been nice if the other five were still in the mix.
 
If they don't hear it, doesn't that translate into a pretty big win for us?

It would be a big win for those in the District of Columbia. It would only apply to the original decision, which was that the DC law was unconstitutional. However, that might be able to be used as precedence in other juridictions.
 
Say I want to be a law-abiding citizen, so I follow the law, even though I don't believe it will pass Constitutional muster. By being a law-abiding citizen, I invalidate my right to challenge the laws under which I live. That right is reserved for criminals?

Okay, in this case, Heller did not break the law. However, in many, perhaps most, cases, he would have had to break the law in order to challenge it.


That is so true, and I think that is why 2nd Amendment cases and the advancement of 2nd Amendment rights have not occured in the the same way that other Amendments have.

Generally... in order to get standing... you have to BREAK THE LAW. The first person to get arrested for burning a flag probably did not face 10 years in prison for doing so. The first person to exercise the 5th did not face 10 years in prison for doing so. You catch my drift. VERY generally speaking, in order to challenge a law you have to break it. Breaking firearms laws often means prison time.

This case is unique. Because DC has a complete handgun ban, simply applying for a permit and being denied gives one standing. Better still, the plaintiff here was a person who is trusted with a firearm in his line of work.

The only place they could have done this without going to prison is in a locale that has a total ban on arms as outlined in Miller. DC was the best because they have extensive regulations on long arms as well.
 
So I wonder... If the court takes it and decides the DC bas is unconstitutional... would people in prison for handgun possession incertain other areas then have standing to appeal their cases... or people who already "paid" their "debt" have the standing to get their record exponged?

Oh, ArmedBear... my sentiments exactly. (post #9)
 
rdhood said:

Quote:
Say I want to be a law-abiding citizen, so I follow the law, even though I don't believe it will pass Constitutional muster. By being a law-abiding citizen, I invalidate my right to challenge the laws under which I live. That right is reserved for criminals?

Okay, in this case, Heller did not break the law. However, in many, perhaps most, cases, he would have had to break the law in order to challenge it.


That is so true, and I think that is why 2nd Amendment cases and the advancement of 2nd Amendment rights have not occured in the the same way that other Amendments have.

Generally... in order to get standing... you have to BREAK THE LAW. The first person to get arrested for burning a flag probably did not face 10 years in prison for doing so. The first person to exercise the 5th did not face 10 years in prison for doing so. You catch my drift. VERY generally speaking, in order to challenge a law you have to break it. Breaking firearms laws often means prison time.

This case is unique. Because DC has a complete handgun ban, simply applying for a permit and being denied gives one standing. Better still, the plaintiff here was a person who is trusted with a firearm in his line of work.

The only place they could have done this without going to prison is in a locale that has a total ban on arms as outlined in Miller. DC was the best because they have extensive regulations on long arms as well.

Yup. That is why civil disobedience is important. Someone has to break the law, put their life on the line, and challenge the law when it is wrong.

Thankfully, many do indeed do this!:)
 
Well, here's another wrinkle:

California, which has numerous "infringements" in its laws, also has a section that indemnifies anyone who acts in self-defense.

What that means is that otherwise law-abiding citizens who break some firearms law, but are caught because they use the gun in self-defense, can't be prosecuted for the firearms law.

"Good!" we say. But think about this...

The only people who will be prosecuted are generally people who are charged with breaking a firearms law along with other laws, i.e. drug dealers, burglars, robbers, etc. And such a criminal is unlikely to appeal a firearms charge, and is even less likely to win that appeal, because of the circumstances surrounding the violation.

When you look at it that way, the law seems designed to make sure that the courts will never see otherwise law-abiding citizens who have broken a dubious firearms law. Therefore these laws can never be challenged. A case that doesn't exist can't be appealed!
 
If they don't hear it, doesn't that translate into a pretty big win for us?

Not really! The rulng of the Appeals court would stand, but only in the DC area. That would simply tie the number of 2nd Amendment rulings by Appeals courts at 2-2. The Ninth and the 2nd CCOA have already ruled the 2nd Amendment as being a collective right. The 5th ruled the 2nd as an individual right in US v. Emerson, but left it so weak as to be ineffective in overturning gun control laws.

Surprising that the conservative court is sitting on its hands. Probably because these conservatives are not really for individual rights that weaken the state - ya think?

No, I don't think. This Court isn't conservative and the strict constructionist view has only prevailed because of the Ability to convince Justice Kennedy. The old and closest to retirement of the current justices are the most liberal, with the exception of Justice Breyer, but they aren't likely to retire when GW Bush is president, since about the only conservative thing he has done is to appoint Roberts and Alito, and he had to be convinced to appoint Alito. Criticism of Alito by specifically gun control advocates was his minority ruling concerning a case with a charge of illegal possession of a machine gun. Alito reasoned that since the gun in question was constructed by the individual, not bought, it was out of the jurisdiction of the federal government because of the "cmmerce clause". Of course, the affront to the limitations of the Comerce clause was probably more alarming to Democrats that the connection to machine guns.

maybe some justices think it is too narrow of a scope to get worked up on and are waiting for the next one to make the big incorporation ruling and declare every american has the right to own machine guns made after 1986!

I find that very unlikely. The trouble is that we have failed to play the game. We intend to appoint fair and just people who interpet the law fairly, while the opposition purposly introduces "litmus tests' and biases to their appointees. As documented on The Glenn Beck Show, the founder of the ACLU, freely admitted to his intention to use the ACLU to promote a clasless society, read that as a socialist one based on the Communist model. I would think then, that membership in the ACLU, (Gingsberg) would be an admission of a bias, since the organization HAS a political agenda. The ACLU knows this and seeks to conceal its political agenda. I use to have a link where they stated that the 2nd Amendment was for the purpose of maintaining a "Nilitia", and thus Not an individual right. They must have erased it as I have been unable to find it since.
 
As documented on The Glenn Beck Show, the founder of the ACLU, freely admitted to his intention to use the ACLU to promote a clasless society, read that as a socialist one based on the Communist model.
You mean the guy that was born in 1884, died the year I was born, and was going back on his soviet love in 1939-1940? Perhaps its time we let the political views a man who would be 123 today had and renounced almost 70 years ago go already. If we're thinking people we'll probably change our minds on several things over our lives. I see no reason not to give credit to nash to doing so any more than punishing me for having to change mine as well.
 
Surprising that the conservative court is sitting on its hands. Probably because these conservatives are not really for individual rights that weaken the state - ya think?

Possible, but likely as possible (such as Scalia) that their support of federalism and states' sovereignty might backfire with a decision along those lines. e.g. - Scalia consistently argues that where the federal power is not enumerated in the constitution and supported by original intent, the power lies with the state. In this case, DC. Therefore, I suspect someone like Scalia would either reject cert (and uphold the DC Circuit decision or grant cert and allow DC (and the states) to decide for themselves.
 
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