NYT editorial on the Heller case

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samus

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Wow! :banghead:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/21/opinion/21wed2.html?ref=todayspaper
November 21, 2007
Editorial

The Court and the Second Amendment

By agreeing yesterday to rule on whether provisions of the District of Columbia’s stringent gun control law violate the Second Amendment to the Constitution, the Supreme Court has inserted itself into a roiling public controversy with large ramifications for public safety. The court’s move sowed hope and fear among supporters of reasonable gun control, and it ratcheted up the suspense surrounding the court’s current term.

The hope, which we share, is that the court will rise above the hard-right ideology of some justices to render a decision respectful of the Constitution’s text and the violent consequences of denying government broad room to regulate guns. The fear is that it will not.

At issue is a 2-to-1 ruling last March by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit that found unconstitutional a law barring handguns in homes and requiring that shotguns and rifles be stored with trigger locks or disassembled. The ruling upheld a radical decision by a federal trial judge, who struck down the 31-year-old gun control law on spurious grounds that conform with the agenda of the anti-gun control lobby but cry out for rejection by the Supreme Court.

Much hinges on how the justices interpret the Second Amendment, which says: “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Opponents of gun control sometimes claim a constitutional prohibition on any serious regulation of individual gun ownership. The court last weighed in on the amendment in 1939, concluding, correctly in our view, that the only absolute right conferred on individuals is for the private ownership of guns that has “some reasonable relationship to the preservation of efficiency of a well-regulated militia.” The federal, state and local governments may impose restrictions on other uses — like the trigger guards — or outright bans on types of weapons. Appellate courts followed that interpretation, until last spring’s departure.

A lot has changed since the nation’s founding, when people kept muskets to be ready for militia service. What has not changed is the actual language of the Constitution. To get past the first limiting clauses of the Second Amendment to find an unalienable individual right to bear arms seems to require creative editing.

Beyond grappling with fairly esoteric arguments about the Second Amendment, the justices need to responsibly confront modern-day reality. A decision that upends needed gun controls currently in place around the country would imperil the lives of Americans.
 
Statement of purpose is not "limiting" language. This applies to the Second as well as the "limiting" language of the First Amendment.

In Miller , where only the government was represented, the Supreme Court issued a weaponcentric test: does this weapon serve a military purpose. If it does, then the government can impose no regulation.

Little Pinch and his brave band of hypocrites. Forever seeking the protections of the First Amendment as they attempt to destroy the rest of the BoR.

So be it. The battle lines are drawn. Let us have at it.:)
 
It will be interesting to watch the Supreme Court wrestle with the convoluted grammar of the 2nd Amendment.

It appears that (at least in the mind of the NYT), the question will come down to whether the first two phrases are a limitation or an explanation.

If guess that if the argument proceeds that if first two phrases are a limitation, then the right to keep an bear arms is a collective right related to and limited by the necessity of defending the state.

I had always wondered how the "rkba is a collective right" argument works. I guess that's it.

Mike
 
Statement of purpose is not "limiting" language.

To be fair, it may or may not be. If I say, "For the purpose of relieving terminal pain, heroin may be administered daily.", I may very well have sated both a purpose and limitation.

Mike
 
Did you really expect anything less from the folks who gave Walter Durante to the world?

I am glad pro-RKBA folks only make rational arguments, and we leave ad hominem emotional attacks to those irrational anti's. After all, they are not capable of rational thought. :)

Mike
 
meh, did you expect less from new york? Their a** is first on the line when and if SCOTUS upholds the circuit ruling.
 
meh, did you expect less from new york? Their a** is first on the line when and if SCOTUS upholds the circuit ruling.

The quality of these highly rational arguments makes me proud of THR. We're spanking them irrational, name-calling anti's.

Mike
 
I'm surprised that the NYT doesn't see the danger to themselves when any part of the BoR is made more narrow.
 
I read not so long ago in the WSJ that the NYT and Wapo have nowhere near the circulation or clout that they once did. They still froth at the mouth but nobody pays much attention. ;)
 
I don't have any problem with an emotional response to emotion-driven rhetoric. It's perfectly THR.

Many people make the mistake of trying to use logic on people who have taken a position for emotional reasons. You can't reason someone away from their position if they used emotion to get there.

This guy IS a dope.
 
RPC, that rationale was not applied to the First Amendment when the Court held that statement of purpose could not be defined as a lmitation on a right.

The right to arms is far more expansive than simply guaranteeing an absolute right to military weapons just as the First Amendment's rights are broader than the explicit language.
 
obviously the author of the editorial has not bothered to look at FBI or CDC numbers showing the gun laws have no value in deterring violent crime.

none, nada, zilch.

If the federal government, and agencies who traditionally have a bias against gun rights can't prove gun control works, then how can we claim they are needed? Or perhaps, the question should be - if gun laws do not reduce crime or accidental shootings, what agenda does gun control really support?
 
Obviosly the author has never read any of the writings of the founding fathers, either. Anyone who ascribes to this collective right bunk is either ignorant or a liar.
 
The ruling upheld a radical decision by a federal trial judge, who struck down the 31-year-old gun control law on spurious grounds that conform with the agenda of the anti-gun control lobby but cry out for rejection by the Supreme Court.

Idiot editorial should at least get the basic facts right. The trial court upheld the law:

Because this Court rejects the notion that there is an
individual right to bear arms separate and apart from service in
the Militia and because none of the plaintiffs have asserted
membership in the Militia, plaintiffs have no viable claim under
the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution. Thus,
plaintiffs' complaint must be dismissed and their Motion for
Summary Judgment denied as moot.

http://www.gurapossessky.com/news/parker/documents/PARKER_DCT_OPINION.pdf

Beyond grappling with fairly esoteric arguments about the Second Amendment, the justices need to responsibly confront modern-day reality. A decision that upends needed gun controls currently in place around the country would imperil the lives of Americans.

Famed constitutional lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who defended O.J. Simpson and Claus von Bulow, is a former ACLU national board member who admits he "hates" guns and wants the Second Amendment repealed. Yet, says Dershowitz: "Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."
 
They have tipped their hand, stating that banning an entire class of firearms is "reasonable".

NYT, NY-state, big-media, Brady, VPC, MMM, and any other bottom feeders suckling at Soro's teat who support DC have demonstrated that outright bans are the natural end-game for their cause. They have no credibility, and their definition of "reasonable" is out the window.

-T
 
I don't have any problem with an emotional response to emotion-driven rhetoric. It's perfectly THR.

Many people make the mistake of trying to use logic on people who have taken a position for emotional reasons. You can't reason someone away from their position if they used emotion to get there.

This guy IS a dope.

I take offense to your statement. This guy makes Dopes like me look bad.

Dope
 
Whyd doesn't the NYT simply change the name of itself to truly reflect their editorial positions????


"Pravda" comes to mind....
 
I have such fun with this stuff!

The Court and the Second Amendment

By agreeing yesterday to rule on whether provisions of the District of Columbia’s stringent gun control law violate the Second Amendment to the Constitution, the Supreme Court has inserted itself into a roiling public controversy with large ramifications for public safety. The court’s move sowed hope and fear among supporters of reasonable gun control, and it ratcheted up the suspense surrounding the court’s current term.

Large ramifications...like allowing the good guys to defend themselves by removing the restrictions currently in place. Especially when those laws are punishing innocents who never did commit any crime in the first place but still seem to keep being restricted and/or punished.

Reasonable gun control is, of course, a complete Red Herring. Guns aren't the issue, nor are good people with guns. CRIMINALS are the issue and they ignore the laws in place (hence the term "Criminal").

I'm still waiting for these people to start focusing on "criminal control".

The hope, which we share, is that the court will rise above the hard-right ideology of some justices to render a decision respectful of the Constitution’s text and the violent consequences of denying government broad room to regulate guns. The fear is that it will not.

Here's the old "Blood in the streets" rant again. A fear that has repeatedly FAILED to materialize whenever gun restrictions have been relaxed. Crime comes from CRIMINALS not from the tools they choose to use. A "good guy" with a fully automatic machine gun is no more threat than he was with a butter knife because good people simply don't do evil things.

At issue is a 2-to-1 ruling last March by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit that found unconstitutional a law barring handguns in homes and requiring that shotguns and rifles be stored with trigger locks or disassembled. The ruling upheld a radical decision by a federal trial judge, who struck down the 31-year-old gun control law on spurious grounds that conform with the agenda of the anti-gun control lobby but cry out for rejection by the Supreme Court.

Just for the record, that unconstitutional law is still being enforced in DC now, 8 MONTHS later! It's also quite enlightening to look at what crime in DC has done in those 31 years and ask if this law (affecting, restricting, and punishing the law abiding who did nothing wrong, and basically ignored by the criminals) has done any good or just harm.

Much hinges on how the justices interpret the Second Amendment, which says: “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Opponents of gun control sometimes claim a constitutional prohibition on any serious regulation of individual gun ownership. The court last weighed in on the amendment in 1939, concluding, correctly in our view, that the only absolute right conferred on individuals is for the private ownership of guns that has “some reasonable relationship to the preservation of efficiency of a well-regulated militia.” The federal, state and local governments may impose restrictions on other uses — like the trigger guards — or outright bans on types of weapons. Appellate courts followed that interpretation, until last spring’s departure.

About all I can say here is a note that trigger locks (the type you insert into the trigger guard area) are DANGEROUS and violate one of the 4 rules of safe gun handling by messing with the trigger. So here we have yet another law making us entirely LESS safe!

A lot has changed since the nation’s founding, when people kept muskets to be ready for militia service. What has not changed is the actual language of the Constitution. To get past the first limiting clauses of the Second Amendment to find an unalienable individual right to bear arms seems to require creative editing.

Creative editing is to assign a collective view to the same "the people" that is held as indicating individual rights in the rest of the document. (or is the 1'st amendment a "collective" right of the state?)

Beyond grappling with fairly esoteric arguments about the Second Amendment, the justices need to responsibly confront modern-day reality. A decision that upends needed gun controls currently in place around the country would imperil the lives of Americans.

And another return to the "blood will run in the streets" fallacy.
 
RPC, that rationale was not applied to the First Amendment when the Court held that statement of purpose could not be defined as a lmitation on a right.

Which part of the 1st Amendment was considered a purpose clause?

It looks to me like a list of rights, with no justification:

  • Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
  • or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
  • or abridging the freedom of speech,
  • or of the press;
  • or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
  • and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Is one these understood in legal thought to be stating the purpose of another?

Mike
 
The Old Grey Lady said:
The hope, which we share, is that the court will rise above the hard-right ideology of some justices to render a decision respectful of the Constitution’s text and the violent consequences of denying government broad room to regulate guns.

A fine example of cognitive dissonance. A court that "respects the text" while simultaneously ignoring it defines obscenity.

legal said:
Alan Dershowitz, who defended O.J. Simpson and Claus von Bulow, is a former ACLU national board member who admits he "hates" guns and wants the Second Amendment repealed.

Unlike most anits at least Dershowitz is intelligent enough to express a reasoned opinion. If you don't like the 2A, if you "hate guns", then work within the framework of the Constitution to repeal it. Draft an amendment that closes whatever loopholes you think exist, and present it to the People for ratification. I couldn't agree more.

ZeSpectre said:
Guns aren't the issue, nor are good people with guns. CRIMINALS are the issue and they ignore the laws in place (hence the term "Criminal").

I'm still waiting for these people to start focusing on "criminal control".

Keep waiting. Respectfully, I believe neither guns nor criminals nor violence are the issues that drive gun control proponents in elected office. Look at Rendell yesterday, banging his shoe on the table in an effort to make the Judiciary Committee see the logic of a one gun a month limit. The motivation that drives him and others is control, plain and simple. Imposition of control upon others empowers them and makes them indispensable. Examined in that light, the oppressive effects of such legislation on innocents - making it more difficult for "good people with guns" to just peaceably exist, an underlying motivation of "control" begins to make sense.

... trigger locks ... are DANGEROUS and violate one of the 4 rules of safe gun handling by messing with the trigger. So here we have yet another law making us entirely LESS safe!

You see? You aren't responsible for your safety. The state will provide it. Just one example that proves my point.
 
I think we need reasonable newspaper control

No criminals should be allowed to publish,own or read newspapers.
Its for the children.
 
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