USA TODAY: Supremes to define reach of gun laws

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searcher451

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From this morning's USA TODAY, on the front page as the newspaper's Cover Story:

High court to define reach of gun-control laws
Does right to bear arms trump cities and states?


By Joan Biskupic USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — In 2008, when national gun rights advocates were looking for residents to challenge Chicago’s ban on handguns, Otis Mc-Donald was in effect looking for them. McDonald , 76, says he had seen his neighborhood on the far South Side of Chicago turn from bad to worse over the years with “gangbangers and drug dealers.”
“My wife and I are here alone all the time now,” says McDonald, a retired maintenance engineer, who with his wife, Laura, reared three children. “I’ve got burglar alarms hooked into the police department. I have a shotgun, but a handgun (would be) more handy for me to handle.”
McDonald had driven down to Springfield, Ill., a few years earlier for an Illinois State Rifle Association rally, to support the push for looser gun laws in Chicago. It was the beginning of a bond with gun rights activists that led to Mc-Donald v. City of Chicago, a dispute that will be argued before the Supreme Court on Tuesday and could reshape firearms regulations nationwide.
The case marks the second round of high-stakes litigation over the breadth of the Second Amendment — and will likely have wider impact nationwide than the first. In June 2008, the justices struck down a Washington, D.C., handgun ban and declared for the first time that the Second Amendment covers an individual right to keep and bear arms.
The new question is whether the 2008 decision also applies to cities and states, or only to laws in the federal government and its enclaves, such as Washington . It sets up another major constitutional question with ramifications for scores of mostly urban gun regulations.
Chicago defends the 1982 law that stops Mc- Donald and other residents from keeping handguns in their homes, arguing that firearms violence is so serious that the court should not extend the 2008 landmark ruling to states.
Benna Ruth Solomon, the city attorney taking the lead on the new case, says in her brief that states and cities should be able to decide for their own jurisdictions how to reduce crime and also prevent accidental injuries caused by firearms.
The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, the International Association of Chiefs of Police and two other police groups have joined in a “friend of the court” brief cautioning the justices about how their decision could affect gun regulations nationwide.
“Courts already have been grappling with over 190 Second Amendment challenges brought against firearms laws and prosecutions in the year and a half since” the justices’ ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller, the groups say in their brief.
They say lawsuits have targeted, among other regulations, those barring loaded guns on public streets and the possession of guns on government property.
The court said the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to keep guns in the home for self-defense but did not preclude other long-standing laws, such as those that ban felons from having firearms.
The overriding question in the Chicago case: Does the Second Amendment grant a fundamental right comparable to, say, the First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech and the Fourth Amendment’s shield against unreasonable searches and seizures? Or, is the Second Amendment in a class of its own because it involves a right to possess a weapon designed to kill or cause injury?
McDonald’s lawyers, backed by 38 states, argue the Second Amendment should protect people against city and state regulation because the right to bear arms is “fundamental to the American scheme of justice.”
The Chicago School Board, backing the city, counters: “We tolerate few restrictions on the right to free speech because of its salutary effects, and because ‘sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me,’ as the children’s rhyme goes. Guns, on the other hand, will kill you.”
‘I am doing this for me’
The case against Chicago’s handgun law began while the groundbreaking District of Columbia v. Heller was in the works. Virginia lawyer Alan Gura, who took the lead on the 2008 case, was looking for residents to challenge the Chicago law and offer a broader test of the Second Amendment.
“I said the Lord is hearing my prayer,” recalls McDonald of meeting Gura and other gun rights lawyers in early 2008. “They never pressed me. I’m not doing this for them. I am doing this for me.”
McDonald had been trying for years to protect himself and other seniors in the deteriorating neighborhood.
Crime in McDonald’s area has been steadily rising, although it is mainly property crime rather than violent assaults, according to Chicago police district statistics. Burglaries and thefts are the most common types of crimes in the district. There were 881 burglaries reported in 2006, 1,109 in 2007 and 1,215 in 2008, the most recent annual report available. There were 17 murders in 2008, a number that has held steady since 2006.
McDonald says he often challenged young drug dealers as they hung around idling cars and warned that he would alert the police: “They’d just call me, ‘You old gray-headed so-and-so’ and say they’d get me.”
McDonald took the threats seriously.
When he first got involved with the Illinois State Rifle Association, he was a rare voice from his South Side neighborhood.
“I was probably the only black at that first meeting” in Springfield, McDonald says. “I met a lot of people. Everybody was friendly.” The Army veteran adds that “it was like a bunch of old GIs getting together. . . . I liked their message.”
The other three Chicagoans in the lawsuit are Adam Orlov and Colleen and David Lawson. The Second Amendment Foundation and Illinois State Rifle Association are also challengers to the Chicago law. (A separate challenge to a handgun ban in the Village of Oak Park, a Chicago suburb, is also part of the Supreme Court case.)
Colleen Lawson, 51, says that when she was young, before the city passed the 1982 ban, many people kept handguns in the home to protect themselves.
“My grandmother carried a handgun in her apron pocket when I was growing up,” she says.
After an attempted burglary in 2006 at the home she and her husband, David, own on the city’s North Side, Lawson says she wanted to keep a handgun in the house. She says that would be easier to handle and give her more confidence than an “unwieldy” shotgun, which is legal in Chicago if properly registered.
On June 26, 2008, the day the Supreme Court invalidated the Washington ban, McDonald, the Lawsons and Orlov were poised to file their lawsuit against Chicago.
They claimed the new ruling on the Second Amendment meant they should be able to register handguns in the city.
Lower U.S. courts rejected the challenge and sided with Chicago.


The remainder of the story is on the next post ...
 
Here's the remainder of the USA TODAY story from this morning:

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, which covers Illinois , Indiana and Wisconsin, stressed that the Supreme Court held more than a century ago that the Second Amendment applies only to the federal government. The appeals court said the 2008 Supreme Court ruling did not change that.
Among the groups backing McDonald and the other residents is the NRA, which won time to argue separately before the justices on the gun rights side.
“The case comes down to whether people in cities like Chicago are going to have the same rights as people in Washington, D.C.,” says Paul Clement, a former U.S. solicitor general under President George W. Bush who will represent the NRA during arguments.
“It would be an odd constitutional situation if only people in enclaves like Washington had these rights. If the NRA side of this case doesn’t prevail in this case, then Heller wasn’t that big of a deal — and people thought Heller was a big deal.”
Chicago city lawyers say states and cities should be able to work out their own solutions to gun crime. Solomon highlights the city’s problem in her brief: “Handguns were used in 402 of 412 firearm homicides in Chicago in 2008. Handguns are used to kill in the United States more than all other weapons — firearms and otherwise — combined.”
In 2008, the city reported 510 murders, up from 445 in 2007.
Siding with Chicago are three states with populous urban centers: Illinois, Maryland and New Jersey.
They contend that if McDonald wins, “nearly every firearms law will become the subject of a constitutional challenge, and even in cases where the law ultimately survives, its defense will be costly and time-consuming.”
On the other side, Texas leads 38 states in saying the Second Amendment should apply beyond Washington. They note that 44 state constitutions include a right to keep and bear arms.
A test for Sotomayor
McDonald v. City of Chicago is shaping up to be one of the most consequential cases of the term.
Fifty-one “friend of court” briefs have been filed by groups on both sides of the case. (In 2008, when the justices directly confronted the Second Amendment for the first time, 67 such briefs were filed.)
The court’s decision in Heller, which reinforced the popular notion in American culture of an individual right to bear arms, was decided on an ideologically split vote that has become a defining feature of the current bench under Chief Justice John Roberts.
About the time that case was argued, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll showed that nearly three out of four Americans believed the Second Amendment covered an individual right to own a firearm.
Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the majority and was joined by fellow conservatives Roberts, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. Liberals John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer dissented.
Justice Sonia Sotomayor succeeded Souter in 2009. Earlier that year, Sotomayor, a judge on the New York-based U.S. appeals court, had been part of a three-judge panel that found the Second Amendment did not apply to the states.
That decision, which rejected a challenge to a New York ban on certain weapons used in martial arts, provoked some gun groups, including the NRA, to protest her high-court nomination.
When she testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee last July, Sotomayor observed that the Supreme Court had left open in Heller the question of whether the Second Amendment covers the states and said that issue needed to be resolved before appeals courts weighed in.
She said her panel decided the martial-arts case on the basis of established high-court precedent and that she had a “completely open mind” on whether the Supreme Court should extend the Second Amendment to the states.
On Chicago’s dicey far South Side, McDonald contends people in cities beyond Washington should have the same Second Amendment protections as people in the nation’s capital.
“Why should we have to suffer with all the laws passed down by the states and the cities,” he says, “while the people who are doing all this (violence) are getting guns and the police can’t stop them?”
 
What do YOU think ?

I think that at least some of our SCOTUS judges have an uncanny ability to be utterly intellectually dishonest when they really want a certain outcome from a case -- i.e. "It's not what the Constitution says, but what I feel, that matters. I'll decide first, and make up a 'reason' for the decision later."

However, I also believe that there is absolutely no way that an intellectually honest judge can apply every other Federal civil right protection in the United States' Bill of Rights to State governments, per the Constitution, yet still claim that this particular right is "different" and doesn't apply.
 
However, I also believe that there is absolutely no way that an intellectually honest judge can apply every other Federal civil right protection in the United States' Bill of Rights to State governments, per the Constitution, yet still claim that this particular right is "different" and doesn't apply.

makes sense.. that how I see it as well !
 
I think it is likely to be a split decision, with a majority (probably the same 5 as in Heller) favoring incorporation but disagreeing on the mechanism for incorporation.

Roberts and some others will probably favor incorporation by the Due Process clause to avoid overruling the Slaughter-House cases.

Others may favor overruling Slaughter-House and incorporating via the Privileges or Immunities Clause. I think Justice Thomas is open to this approach, and this approach may even pick up one or two of the more liberal judges (lots of "progressive" groups favor overturning the Slaughter-House cases).
 
I don't think it's a slam dunk. I do think it will be a one vote win or a one vote loss.
 
It was a remarkably balanced article from USA Today, even a little biased towards our side.

It will be VERY interesting to see how the "Wise Latina" votes on this one. I'm not holding my breath though.
 
However, I also believe that there is absolutely no way that an intellectually honest judge can apply every other Federal civil right protection in the United States' Bill of Rights to State governments, per the Constitution, yet still claim that this particular right is "different" and doesn't apply.

Not every right in the Bill of Rights applies to the States. For example, I do not believe there is a right to a jury in a state civil (i.e. monetary) trial.
 
Wise Latina

The newly appointed ? I try to keep up with your politics and justice system, but it's not always easy...

If you are talking about her, I'm pretty sure I could bet and win about what she will say..
 
Not every right in the Bill of Rights applies to the States. For example, I do not believe there is a right to a jury in a state civil (i.e. monetary) trial.

True. However, AFAIK the decision that led to that was that there was substantially similar protection of due process in the states, so that the exact means of providing that protection did not need to be identical -- "substantive due process" I think. This same logic can't really be applied (again, assuming intellectual honesty) to freedom of speech, or religion, since they don't involve judicial processes.
 
"The Chicago School Board, backing the city, counters: “We tolerate few restrictions on the right to free speech because of its salutary effects, and because ‘sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me,’ as the children’s rhyme goes. Guns, on the other hand, will kill you.”
‘I am doing this for me’ "



It makes me angry when people say that words don't hurt. Those people have never seen a kid destroyed because of a careless word. You can’t tell me that every school shooting in history didn’t first start with someone using words carelessly to bring an individual down.

Everyone tries to say that Freedom of Speech is different because it doesn't hurt anyone. I would like to point out that one of the most damaging pieces of literature-Mein Kampf, killed millions of people by spreading an ideology that one class or race of people was inferior to another. In 1095, Pope Urban II used a long string of words to convince people to mobilize and start the crusades-something that would have damaging effects the likes of which we are still realizing.

I have made my living with words and would defend to the death my right to express my views and opinions. We have the second amendment to protect the first. I would argue that words have the potential to do as much damage as an army touting the latest firearms technology. Historically they have. Words have been used to persuade populations to kill innocent people. They used technology at hand-knives, swords, spears, rocks and firearms, to kill those deemed inferior. Knowing how important words are, and how damaging they can be, the founding fathers still secured the right of free speech in the Constitution. Those great men also knew that technology, like time, always marches forward. They understood that firearms would advance and still secured that right to bear arms to every common man.

People in the ancient world realized words could be damaging too. Before firearms were even a glint in the minds of man, scholars had this to say about words-

“Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:” Psalm 64:3

Sorry for the rant. It seems so elementary to me that we need the second amendment to protect the first.
 
Chicago defends the 1982 law that stops Mc- Donald and other residents from keeping handguns in their homes, arguing that firearms violence is so serious that the court should not extend the 2008 landmark ruling to states.

Looks like Chicago admitted that their ban has failed. After almost 30 years, there should be a decrease in gun violence if their little theory worked out.
 
The newly appointed ? I try to keep up with your politics and justice system, but it's not always easy...

If you are talking about her, I'm pretty sure I could bet and win about what she will say..
Yes, Justice Sonia Sotomayor is the newest appointee to the Supreme Court. The term "Wise Latina" came from one of her infamous statements in which she implied that someone with a more colorful background and wider range of ethnic experience, such as a "wise latina" could be more qualified to judge someone under the law than a white man.

She scares me because she lets her opinions of what the law should be take priority over the strict rule of law.
 
Certainly no slam dunk.

If the same justices of Heller vote similarly, and I think they believed they were deciding this issue back during Heller, it should be a "win".


But what is a "win"? So they say it does apply. What if they add more room for "reasonable restrictions" or even worse wording?
What if they increase the allowable scope of gun control for 90% of the nation, while reducing it for the strictest 10%?
What if their wording puts an end to many other challenges on the scope of allowable gun control?


It is not as simple as "winning" or "losing". The words actually spoken which set case law and decide future arguments will significantly effect the 2nd.

What is reasonable? Is 6 round magazine capacity limit reasonable? Is 5? 2 shots? Single shots only?
Is restricting firearms to under .50 like the GCA did reasonable? Why was .50 chosen as a magical cutoff and why not .60 or .40?
Is limiting what arms people can have by using a "sporting clause" that is used by an agency that defines hunting as the only real "sport" reasonable?
What about firearms under 1968's cut-off of .50? Is banning .50s reasonable? .40s? Is it reasonable as long as a .22 is still available?
Is limiting what materials bullets can be made from reasonable?
Is limiting civilians to old technology while allowing federal and state LEO the latest and greatest reasonable?
Does that undo the whole original purpose of the 2nd and balance of power?

Is creating licensing and qualification schemes and additional monetary costs to exercise a "right" enumerated in the Bill of Rights Constitutional even if technically someone can still acquire a firearm?


How many infringements are "reasonable"?

As you can see, a "pro-gun" ruling can actually allow or legitimize more gun control than ever before, with the blessing of the highest court in the nation if it is worded wrong and slowly lead to even fewer rights for most on some issues.
 
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thanks for the explanations.. i see it's not as guaranteed as I thought..

When do we expect the decision ?
This I think is the "biggest" case heard this session, there probably won't be a ruling until the last day of the session which is october, but I can't say for sure.
 
The Chicago School Board, backing the city, counters: “We tolerate few restrictions on the right to free speech because of its salutary effects, and because ‘sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me,’ as the children’s rhyme goes. Guns, on the other hand, will kill you.”

I thought it was the children who dropped out of the horrific Chicago school system that killed people, not the guns. Why does anyone care what the school board thinks? They can't even do their own job well to begin with.
 
The Chicago School Board, backing the city, counters: “We tolerate few restrictions on the right to free speech because of its salutary effects, and because ‘sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me,’ as the children’s rhyme goes. Guns, on the other hand, will kill you.”
The school board needs to get off its high horse, post-haste. "We tolerate few restrictions"? Hold the phone, here. There's nothing to be tolerated, buddy. YOU work for US. :mad:
 
To me eroding guns rights reflects eroding civil rights. I agree with public safety and there are lots of people who shouldn't have guns. I believe the State folks should do their jobs and deal with those with mental problems and such. I don't think limiting every ones basic right to defend themselves is in the interest of "public safety." Another thing that has been bothering me is police and DHS acting on warrants "in good faith." So you don't actually have the warrant, but you can go ahead and search because you think one is being processed? I would like to do my taxes the same way!!! I think I paid my tax bill--you'll just have to take my "good faith" and put it in the bank.
 
Honest citizens continue to keep pistols and revolvers for HD/SD in Chicago. The city has a way of licensing business owners to have handguns in the business. They have them take the training course for armed security guards. Then they can register a handgun and keep it in the store. And when a retired cop passes away, the family often keeps the service weapon for HD.
 
Historically the 2nd ammendment has been under two legal schools of thought, states rights vs individual rights.

Sounds like they are pushing hard for the individual rights and that is hard to win.
 
States do not have rights; they have powers. Only individuals have rights. To construe that such a thing as a "collective right" even exists is intellectually dishonest at best, downright evil at worst.
 
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