Used 45ACP Brass-Anyone Fall for the "Mixed Headstamp" Scam

[gerrym526]

Wanted to share what recently happened to me in purchasing used 45ACP brass on gunbroker, and see if anyone else has had the same experience. Those of you who reload know that the 45ACP cartridge can come in either large pistol primer type or small pistol primer type. I'm set up to load large primer, which I think is pretty standard for most reloaders. In buying a lot of used 45ACP brass on gunbroker recently, I go a lot of 500 pieces, 95% of which were small pistol primer size-for me unusable. It was advertised as "mixed headstamp" with no mention of it being all small primer type.
When I contacted the seller, he got into an argument with me, until I pointed out that "mixed headstamp" is a different term than "primer size"-and all reputable reloading suppliers (e.g. Midway USA) will specify the primer size in the merchandise description.
I'm waiting for a refund of my money from the seller, who originally wanted m to pay his listing and selling fees until I threatened to report him to gunbroker.com.
Anyone else have this experience? Think there are lots of "less than honest" sellers of reloading supplies out there that are taking advantage of guys like me.
What do you guys think?
Thanks,
Gerry

 

[Bovice]

You mean to tell me that you can't set up your press to load small primers, and that you don't load ANYTHING with small pistol primers? I'll agree that the posting was misleading, but that doesn't make the brass useless.

Somebody on here did a chrono test with the same load, but large vs. small primer. Both were the same, and it was determined that .45 ACP does not really need a large pistol primer, but most of it does because it's always been that way before.

 

[GT1]

I think you are right to be po'ed...

I never mess about with an argument though. I ask very politely to be made right, once, and then I let my visa card provider take care of business if my trading partner is unwilling. His merchant account provider getting stuck paying the chargeback fee hurts him more than any 'reporting' to anyone(I'd still negative feedback the snot out of whoever, however. When it is all said and done.).

Life is too short.

 

[Reefinmike]

Id be a bit mad at that bait and switch, but "once fired 45 acp brass" does not mean "once fired large pistol primer pocket 45acp brass". You cant assume that all 45 brass will be large pistol primer pocket. On the other hand, shame on that guy for dumping his spp brass on you.

 

[243winxb]

Was there photos of the product to look at? If you knew there were large & small primers in 45 acp, why did you not ask questions before bidding? Both parties seem to be at fault here.

 

[blarby]

While i'd be concerned- there is a healthy dose of "caveat emptor" with anything on GB.

"Mixed headstamp"- even here on the proud THR, is often a grab bag of who knows what.

Its mixed. It has a headstamp. You'll be mostly lucky if they are all the same caliber, and it doesn't contain too many rocks.

Now, I would list appropriately- but if they were a mix of large and small, and they were all 45's- I would have told you to pound sand.

A single email in advance could have saved you a lot of trouble. Technically the item meets the description. It is noted that something is omitted from the description, either by error- or by design. If you have any question about goods- especially from an unknown source, ask first. If he lied to you- that'd be a whole nother story.

Why didn't you just buy the brass here ? There are tons of semi-pro brass vendors here with a good reputation, and even one pro.........

I bet the price was real good, huh ?

This is also why I refuse to buy or trade brass without a good photo anymore. Everytime I make an exception- I get burned. I don't make exceptions anymore.

 

[ball3006]

I shot bullseye matches for many years, bought brass from many sources, and reloaded my own ammo. I have never seen a small primer 45 acp round. Who made them? chris3

 

[rbernie]

SPP 45ACP cases are made by ATK, mostly, using Speer, Federal, and CCI headstamps. I'll occasionally see some Fiocchi SPP 45ACP brass. The non-tox (no lead) primers seem to be the impetus for the change.

I've sold range pickup 45ACP before that I wasn't using, and had the buyer come back and complain about the amount of SPP brass in the lot. Truth be told, I hadn't looked, and didn't think that 'range pickup' was undescriptive of the product that I sold. I offered to take it all back, but he didn't want to do that. I genuinely felt bad, of a sort, for the misunderstanding. At the same time, my opinion was that if the buyer had a preference then it would have been useful for him to express it prior to the sale.

Since I don't want to cull it all out (I pick it out during the loading process, and simply run the SPP and LPP in separate batches), I no longer sell 45ACP brass even if I have extra that I'm not using at the moment.....

Frankly, I wish that brass manufacturers would move the 10mm to SPP. It doesn't need a LPP and it sure would simplify my loading.

 

[NapalmMan67]

Buyer beware and ask before purchasing since you can't assume anything in an online listing. Unless it's specifically said in his posting, "Large" or "Small" primers only, I think you have no recourse to complain about it.

I have actually been looking for SPP 45 acp, as I have a buttload more small primers than large. Wanna trade any?


.

 

[brickeyee]

I shot bullseye matches for many years, bought brass from many sources, and reloaded my own ammo. I have never seen a small primer 45 acp round. Who made them? chris3

Originally 'Winclean' lead free primer ammo.

Now other makers.

Separate out the two and change the primer seating plug.

 

[rsrocket1]

Too bad you were blindsided and that means you bought it blindly.

So you paid for 50 pieces of LPP 45ACP and 450 pieces of SPP 45ACP which you can load later when virtually all 45ACP start to become the norm . Store it in a big ziplock bag, put it next to your computer and let it be a reminder to always be sure about what is said and what is not clearly stated in an ad. If it ain't stated, get clarification. If they don't answer, assume the worst and walk away from the sale. At that point you haven't lost anything other than a few electrons over the Internet.

That would make the GB deal a pretty valuable lesson. Well worth the cost of the auction.

 

[floydster]

I have and shoot thousands of 45 ACP with small and large pistol primers in the last four years.
The small pistol primer 45's are getting more and more abundant, it really hasn't been a prob for me, I just separate them in lots, mixed headstamp.
Set up your press accordingly--I wish everything was this simple

 

[KansasSasquatch]

With the majority of the .45acp brass made being LPP I think the OP was right to assume it would be mainly LPP brass. We all know that just about every press comes with the necessary parts to run either large or small primers, that's probably not his issue. There has been a bit of a shortage going on lately and SPP are one component that's been in real short supply. Maybe the OP doesn't have any SP primers but has a surplus of LP primers for his .45. I'd be a little upset too, afterall, mixed headstamp means mixed headstamp. If you're going to sell SPP .45acp brass you should note that the majority is SPP brass.

 

[beatledog7]

I always assume that mixed headstamp pistol brass means I'll get some or all of the following:

-- A few very similar in size but not what I bought (e.g., 9x19 in the .380)
-- A few nickel-plated (which I also load, but separately)
-- A few A-Mercs (which I crush and recycle because THR said they're awful)
-- A few damaged beyond use (recycle)
-- A few with unexpected crimps (which I fix and load)
-- A few of the alternate primer size (.45ACP)

My tolerance level for these anomalies runs at about 2-3%. Of course, if the seller discloses that there are some N-P or some with crimps, then I have no beef with him. And if I also load the oddballs, again, no real beef unless the number of them is excessive.

It pays when buying .45ACP to ask specifically about primer size. I happily load both sizes, but I would still ask.

 

[ngnrd]

... I'm set up to load large primer, which I think is pretty standard for most reloaders....

Huh...? I've never heard of a reloader that wasn't capable of loading both small and large primers.

And, I don't see any sense in complaining about your "bad" transaction. It sounds like you got what was advertised. I'd say, chalk it up as a learning experience, and move on.

 

[mdemetz]

Midsouth is selling RWS 45ACP small primer brass. Says its 'specialized' for striker fired pistols.

 

[Rule3]

Look at it this way. Yes I agree the seller should have said Small primer. But that's over with.

Stash the brass and get some large primer brass. Pretty soon it's all gonna be small primer and lead free.

It's good to have options like these days. Say you run out of large primers and you still have small, you can still shoot 45ACP. I have a small stash of it.

Heck if you really do not want it, sell it here on the forum or trade.

 

[JoeMal]

I don't reload, so I had no idea .45 came with both primers. To assume the seller knew that would be a mistake on your part I think. I've sold brass before as 'mixed headstamp' and honestly never thought twice about it.

I think it's up to the buyer to ask questions before they buy something. I buy/sell a lot online and it's best to never assume.

Thinking the seller did it to 'get you' is wrong IMO. Maybe he honestly didn't know any different?

 

[mgkdrgn]

I don't reload, so I had no idea .45 came with both primers. To assume the seller knew that would be a mistake on your part I think. I've sold brass before as 'mixed headstamp' and honestly never thought twice about it.

I think it's up to the buyer to ask questions before they buy something. I buy/sell a lot online and it's best to never assume.

Thinking the seller did it to 'get you' is wrong IMO. Maybe he honestly didn't know any different?

Well, I -do- reload (not 45 ACP), and didn't know 45 ACP could use two different primers. I'm not aware of any other cartridge that is that way ... at least not any I've ever run into (30-06, 7.62 x 54, 45 colt, 454 Casull, 30 carbine, 9mm luger)

I've got a big oatmeal can of 45 ACP I've picked up at the range ... I have no earthly clue what % would be small/large primer.

 

[sellersm]

I'm set up to load large primer, which I think is pretty standard for most reloaders.

Well, not to be rude or harsh sounding, but apparently what you thought was wrong. I know lots of guys who ONLY want .45acp with SPP so they don't have to switch over their priming setup when loading their various calibers!! They'd be more than happy with what you purchased!!

Also, if you "knew" these facts, why'd you assume the seller did? I know lots of 'brass rats' that scrounge all they can & then sell them on GB & Armslist, and they don't have a clue as to what primer sizes they care, whether or not they're crimped, etc...

Chalk it up to learning. Times are changing, and more and more .45acp rounds are now coming from the factory with SPP. I expect to see more and more over time, especially with the shortages being experienced. Just Google ".45acp small primer" and see what you find!

Might want to take the high road & apologize a bit to the seller.

 

[frankenstein406]

Sounds like you didn't ask and he said it was range brass so you got what was offered. I don't see anything done wrong on the sellers part since it doesn't sound like it was a bait and switch.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Both .45 acp and 10mm now are being made with both large and small primer pockets. In .45 acp, it's been going on for quite a number of years now in other parts of the world, and for about the last 5 or 6 years in the U.S. I have a .45 acp case headstamped 1954 that has a small pistol primer pocket, and I've had older ones in the past.

The 10mm case using the small pistol primer is a more recent addition, within the past couple of years. They are still fairly rare, but are out there.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[cfullgraf]

It was advertised as "mixed headstamp" with no mention of it being all small primer type.

The brass was not mis-represented as the seller did not state a particular primer size. Maybe he should have.

The buyer just assumed the cases had large primer pockets. Knowing that 45 ACP cases could have small primer pockets, the buyer should have asked. I am sure every knows about what the say about "assume".

I probably would have assumed the same thing had I purchased the cases, but I would put aside the small primer cases and primed them in a different batch.

But, i would not make the same mistake a second time.

 

[Scimmia]

Seems pretty simple to me. He didn't specify primer sizes and you didn't ask, you assumed. Not his problem.

 

[Lj1941]

SPP in 45ACP

This to me is a non issue.I have read many threads on this and other forums.I purchased >3 years ago some 45ACP OF brass. I did not even get into this brass until recently. I
found that about 30% more or less were Small Pistol primers. I use SPP in most of my other handgun calibers.It was not a big deal to me once I realised what I was dealing with.I do not feel cheated at all.