I guess I didn't understand "mixed range brass"....lesson learned.

[Texas10mm]

It seems nobody trims handgun brass. Most say it never grows. The OEM's don't always agree on length so mixed brass could have different lengths. it is also formed to length in different barrels. These are more than likely very small differences. Perhaps on the classic long revolver cartridges that take a roll crimp they should be uniformed.

Differences in length will change the time a projectile dwells before moving out of a case. This micro difference in time could be significant. If nothing else the time the recoil is felt is at a "nano-micro-minusia" different time.

Handguns are typically shot at a short distance. A 50 Yard shot is considered long by most shooters. So do things that matter to long guns shot at long gun distance matter to hand gun cartridges ?

I don't weigh to sort my handgun bullets... I typically cannot use the same hole for all (100) hand loads in a box. My shooting is not good enough to worry about this. I shoot MOZ... Moment Of Zombie.

Straight wall cases like the .45 ACP don't elongate. They actually shorten. Only bottleneck cases elongate. It has to do with the physics of firing.

 

[Skgreen]

You separate the SPP brass. Can you tell me what that stands for (Small Primer???)?

SPP = Small Primer Pocket

 

[higgite]

SPP = Small Primer Pocket

SPP = Small Pistol Primer

 

[Walkalong]

I have decided to not pickup small pistol primer .45 ACP cases. I don't see much of it and I have two lifetime supplies of LPP .45 ACP cases.

 

[Charlie98]

I gave up on used or 'once-fired' brass a long time ago. The only thing I will pick up at the range is .45ACP, and then I'll cull through it and discard anything besides the Big 3 domestic cases and PMC. I'm too OCD to have mixed brass in my ammo boxes, and I don't shoot enough volume to have to scarf up anything I see.

I do keep the SPP .45 brass... it's in a separate box. I'll save it up until I have about 500 of them, then load them up for when I know recovering my brass is unlikely.

I had issues with some once-fired, processed military 7.62mm brass, I had case failures on my first loading (the second firing, so to speak) so I've sworn off any sort of mystery rifle brass. In my case, the only handgun brass I'm likely to find of interest to me is .45... I don't reload 9mm, and I doubt I'll find a whole lot of .41MAG brass on the range floor.

 

[mdi]

I've purchased thousands of "used" cases for my reloading, mostly handgun brass. With 98% (99.9%?) of the cases I reload, I have seen no problems, but I thoroughly inspect each case before I reload it (my most accurate load for my 308 is with "once fired"[?] LC brass). As for 45 ACP. when working up a load I'll sort and load by headstamp and the two times in recent history I've purchased used brass, each of the vendors had a different listing for small primed brass, no mix ups. In all the 45 brass I've purchased I've found just 4 or 5 cases not reloadable; two/three steel cases and an aluminum one, and mebbe a Berdan primed one. I don't count reloadings for 45 ACP or most of my other handguns, (mainly my 44 Magnum brass is counted) I just inspect and toss any that don't look right...

Oh, and I'm not "anti-brand new" brass as I just bought 100 brand new Starline nickel plated 45 Colt cases, and boy are they purty!

BTW, I have never had a KABOOM, blown primer or split case using "used" brass. I have had blown primers with extra heavy loads in my 357 Magnum in brass once fired by me...

 

[Skgreen]

SPP = Small Pistol Primer

Small Pistol Primer Pocket

 

[berettaprofessor]

I've stopped buying fired cases and only buy new cases. I lose an average of less than 1% or 2% and the cases last near forever.

Agreed, although it will get to be an expensive habit with 32ACP, of which I only recover about half and only then if I search Mars for the cases.

 

[Walkalong]

Agreed, although it will get to be an expensive habit with 32ACP, of which I only recover about half and only then if I search Mars for the cases.

Yea, a fair percentage of my .32 ACP brass leaps out of the gun with careless abandon and goes "poof" into thin air. It's the dangdest thing. I am using mixed brass in .32 ACP too.

 

[ray15]

I passed on a lot of 40S&W range brass while picking up 9mm, not intending to get into 40. But of course, I ended up getting one, and there's hardly any 40 brass at the range I currently shoot at. So I bought a bag of 1000 used cases from Graf's. It was only 32.99, so I didn't expect much. It wasn't very clean, but lo and behold I got about 400 pieces of Federal and around 400 of Win NT and the rest a mix of Win and Winchester. Fortunately Win NT does not use an enlarged flash hole in 40, like is common in 9mm. It's a luck-of-the-draw affair, but I ended up happy with what I got from Graf's.

 

[berettaprofessor]

I was more fortunate with the 200 cases of 308 I ordered. About a third each of FC and PMC headstamp with a goodly number of Hornady and RP in the remaining third.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Agreed, although it will get to be an expensive habit with 32ACP, of which I only recover about half and only then if I search Mars for the cases.

Between the grass, the stones, the 22lr cases and other distractions I also seem to recover only half of my 32 ACP brass. They seem to call into a black hole never to be seen again!

Because of this I don't shoot my 32 as often as I would like to. I might start buying aluminum case ammo and be done with it. ( buying )

 

[Dudedog]

Yea, a fair percentage of my .32 ACP brass leaps out of the gun with careless abandon and goes "poof" into thin air. It's the dangdest thing. I am using mixed brass in .32 ACP too.

I have found 9mm MAK brass does the same thing.
Don't have much of it, I can trim 9X19 to make it (takes time...) Shoot 100 at least 10 often more fall into small black holes and appear somewhere in a different universe. "poof" gone forever......
If I shoot 100 9X19 (which I have lots of and usually come home with more than I shot) and I manage to find all of mine except maybe 1 or 2.
It's Murphy's law applied to brass.....


I use mixed 9mm range brass any given 50 may have 2 or 3 headstamps or 10 or more.
On most days I couldn't shoot the difference, the days I might be able to are few and far between, so to me not worth the time sorting it other than to toss steel, aluminum, crimped pockets, non boxer primed ones, and the ones with the stupid ledge or anything that looks "bad".

Just for fun I will try to find some like headstamp and run a 10 round test of it vs mixed (will try to find 10 different ones for the mixed) and see what differences I get for ES and SD.
I realize 10 is a small sample but I should be able to find 10 different headstamps easy for the mixed.
.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Dudedog, that would be great. Please report the results.

 

[bbqreloader]

Finally have accumulated what I consider to be "alot" of 9mm (think those cases must be like rabbits-put 2 together and get 12 later), from my range, at least a homer bucket worth. Still not passing up on the 40's as thats what I shoot alot of, so anytime I can score some freebies I take em. Have bought cases from people here at THR too. 45 and 223, I have managed to put a healthy supply together. All of them are range pick ups or bought from rangebrass.us. Have yet to buy new brass. I don't sort by headstamp, too many and not running matches, just paper punching.
As long as I treat them all the same, i.e. cleaning, inspecting, handling and how many times reloaded, never had an issue in the past few years I have been reloading.

 

[bbqreloader]

if you miss a pop bottle or steel plate at 25 yards, it's a 99.9% chance it isn't because of the brass.

It's always the brass...that's my story and I'm stickin to it

 

[hdwhit]

Well, berettaprofessor, I'm at a loss to understand the implied complaint that underlies your post. After having bought new brass, you chose to save money by buying "mixed range brass" without considering what "mixed" might mean (i.e. it means it is likely to compose more than just the four headstamps you have been shooting), or stopping to consider that in 45 ACP it might include both small and large primer cases.

If you want a particular headstamp, buy brass that has been sorted to that particular headstamp. See someone like Leobrass.com.. There are other sellers. Search for them.

If you want all the primers to be the same size, then pay the extra amount to get brass that has been sorted based on primer size. When you intentionally buy "mixed" brass, you have to assume it will not only consist of headstamps you have never seem before, but that those headstamps may not be the same primer size.

Someone who has been reloading for 5 years (see Post #1) is, in my opinion, no longer entitled to claim the moniker of "new reloader" and should be responsible for knowing what they are buying.

 

[LiveLife]

45 is not very fussy - for almost all practical purposes sorting brass is not necessary.

still shoot mixed in .45 ACP ... it runs at low pressure, doesn't stress the cases much

For lower pressure 45ACP, I would agree that sorting of brass is not necessary.

Differences in length will change the time a projectile dwells before moving out of a case. This micro difference in time could be significant.

For semi-auto calibers that headspace off case mouth, difference in resized case length will result in different amount of bullet nose above the case mouth. For lower pressure 45ACP, this may not affect gas leakage/neck tension enough to significantly change chamber pressure build/max pressures to notice on target. Besides, if your brass is too old and short, you are likely headspacing off extractor instead of case mouth when firing pin/striker hits the primer.

But for higher pressure 9mm, I think difference in headstamp, case wall thickness variation, resized case length variation, etc. can affect gas leakage/neck tension/bullet setback enough to significantly change chamber pressure build/max pressures to show on target, especially with shorter bullet base projectiles like 115 gr FMJ/RN, particularly if they are sized .355" and shot out of .356"+ barrels.

Just for fun I will try to find some like headstamp and run a 10 round test of it vs mixed (will try to find 10 different ones for the mixed) and see what differences I get for ES and SD.

Dudedog, that would be great. Please report the results.

Yes, would be interested in SD/ES number difference.

I did a comparison test between sorted .FC. brass and mixed range brass and got below 10 shot groups at 50 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lets-in-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/#post-10195002

Because I did not factor the powder burn/powder charge range/neck tension/bullet setback, I will be repeating my comparison test with different headstamp brass (and different powder/charge range) based on this myth busting thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10711682

Handguns are typically shot at a short distance. A 50 Yard shot is considered long by most shooters. So do things that matter to long guns shot at long gun distance matter to hand gun cartridges?

Yes, more so.

Because pistol bullets travel slower, bullet drop will show on target as vertical stringing along with left/right dispersion. Even at 50 yards, variations in muzzle velocity can be enough to increase vertical spread of shot groups. At 100 yards, even more so.

When I started developing carbine loads to test at 50/75/100 yards, contrary to what some said about 124/125 gr loads shooting more accurate than 115 gr loads, I saw smaller groups with lighter faster 115 gr loads and even smaller groups with even lighter and faster 100 gr loads. Now I am leaning towards reducing muzzle velocity variation (SD number) to reduce vertical spread for smaller shot groups using even lighter 95 gr bullets.

Here's 50 yard group with 115 gr FMJ - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/page-2#post-10519646

Below are comparison 50 yard groups shot with 100 gr bullet and Promo. Notice vertical spread decreasing when powder charge was increased for higher muzzle velocity - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-3#post-10245856

 

[Dudedog]

When I started developing carbine loads to test at 50/75/100 yards, contrary to what some said about 124/125 gr loads shooting more accurate than 115 gr loads, I saw smaller groups with lighter faster 115 gr loads and even smaller groups with even lighter and faster 100 gr loads. Now I am leaning towards reducing muzzle velocity variation (SD number) to reduce vertical spread for smaller shot groups using even lighter 95 gr bullets.

BDS,
When doing the carbine test dis the 124/125s start out supersonic and then drop to subsonic at range?
If yest it might be interestingto see if the results were better if they started out subsonic.
Did the lighter bullets stay supersonic all the way to the target?
Just curious because while I haven't got any test results to prove it my gut tells me that if they start out super then drop to sub you loose accuracy. (I pay be way out to lunch with this, like I said test is "gut feeling")
Other than I prefer the feel that's one reason I kept my 124/125gr practice loads below 1050 (before I was concerned with PF)

 

[LiveLife]

When doing the carbine test dis the 124/125s start out supersonic and then drop to subsonic at range?

If yest it might be interestingto see if the results were better if they started out subsonic.

No. RMR 124 gr JHP started out subsonic (820-838-784-807-860 fps) out of 16" PSA barrel with 1:10 twist so no transonic effect on bullet.

I have gotten better accuracy out of 17" Just Right carbine with 1:16 twist barrel and subsequently used JR carbine for all of my accuracy tests.

I know, velocity was low but 3.2 gr used was near Hodgdon's published max of 3.3 gr. And group size could be from 16" PSA barrel. That's why I plan to test different powder (likely Sport Pistol and/or BE-86) along with 17" JR carbine.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Someone who has been reloading for 5 years (see Post #1) is, in my opinion, no longer entitled to claim the moniker of "new reloader" and should be responsible for knowing what they are buying.

True enough, but there is so much expertise on this forum that I still feel like a complete newborn most of the time, even with experience by now loading 10+ different calibers. And in reloading, every time you load a new caliber, try a new bullet, or work up a new powder, there's always something new to learn.

 

[mdi]

I reloaded my first round in 1969 and took some time off in the late '70s early '80s (messy divorce and sold all equipment). Restarted in '88 and have reloaded full time starting with a 44 Magnum and now load for 8 different calibers and 16 guns. I am still open to learning anything about reloading as even with 30+ years of reloading I still don't know everything. And those that "should on" people for not knowing something are either liars or delusional...

The other day I ran into a case I've never heard of ever; a 45 Colt with a small primer, sold by a large multi-sports, big name retailer, Cabelas. It is a Herters 45 Colt case with a small primer pocket. Even after 40+ combined years of reloading I ain't seen/know it all...

 

[Walkalong]

Even after 40+ combined years of reloading I ain't seen/know it all...

None of us have.