Used 870 Wingmaster or a new Mossberg 500

[ArmedBear]

It's not about the name on the gun. Remington has made and continues to make some real crap -- and some good stuff, too. Some is overpriced, some is flawed, some is junk. I'm not attached to Remington.

The Wingmaster is a genuinely great gun.

I know someone who has worn out a 500. "Thousands of rounds" through a shotgun is nothing. Hundreds of thousands is the expected lifespan of a good shotgun.

It's true: if you're only going to shoot a few rounds through it a year, the Mossberg will be fine.

If you want to know which is a better shotgun, though, the Wingmaster is.

And yeah, Gun Tests is pretty close to right on, most of the time. When Gun Tests, every really experienced shotgunner I have ever spoken to in person, and what I've seen with my own eyes all agree, it's a really safe bet.

That doesn't mean the Mossberg 500 doesn't have a place. It does. There's a reason that, of all the American pumps of the past century, only the Mossbergs and Remingtons have survived the market shakeouts of the past few decades. They're decent guns, for a decent price. The 12 is much-loved, but there's no way a Model 12 could make it as a mass-market pumpgun today.

But if someone's going to ask which is better, a pricepoint Mossberg vs. the top-notch Wingmaster, there is an answer to the question. There are nicer Mossbergs, too, BTW.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

The military has used the Mos 500 in the past, in fairness. There may still be some in use, somewhere. There used to be a mil spec for it but the 590 is (basically) the improved version. The plastic trigger housing/safety is my biggest beef on the 500. They saved maybe a buck on the parts. Crazy.

I'm not a big shotgunner--and I don't have one of my own (Rem 870, that is--I've had a 500A riot gun since 1990) but I'd put the 870 ahead of the Mos. It comes down to the aluminum and plastic over steel.

 

[Blue .45]

I doubt I will shoot more than 500 rounds through this gun per year. It will mostly serve as a HD gun.

Come to think of it, If you're planning on using it for HD, you should probably practice with it much more than that, regardless of which gun you choose.

 

[AStone]

I'm going to side with the 870 crowd here,
most notably Dr. McC, but other fine minds as well.

Nice to see the gloves come off:
THR shotguns getting past pc.

500 is "good".
870 is "great".

Nem,
formerly Nematocyst-870;
still got the 870P, but needed to
honor the 39A, 65, 336 & 642 as well.

 

[Blue .45]

Not to start a flame war, but I came across this article claiming that Remington never submitted an 870 for the US Army's Mil-Spec 3443E test. Does anyone know if this is true? I was under the impression the 870 was used by the military.

Military use
Mossberg claims that the Model 500 is the only shotgun to pass the US Army's Mil-Spec 3443E test, "a brutal and unforgiving torture test with 3,000 rounds of full power 12 gauge buckshot". The updated 3443G specification requires a metal trigger guard, so only the Model 590A1 variants, which use metal trigger groups instead of the standard Model 500's plastic trigger groups, will fit the requirements. However, the Remington 870 was not submitted to the military for the 3443E tests. Remington may have refrained from participating because they did not wish to risk their their already-strong reputation--winning a military contract would have had little impact on Remington's strong police and civilian market, but failing the mil-spec test could have had a serious negative impact on sales.

While the Army and Marines officially switched to the semiautomatic M1014 Combat Shotgun in 1999, various branches of the US military are still acquiring pump shotguns. The Navy acquired several thousand Mossberg 590A1 shotguns in 2004, and the US Army placed an order in 2005 for 14,818 units at a price of just over US$316 per unit.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Mossberg+500

 

[AStone]

Remington never submitted an 870 for the US Army's Mil-Spec 3443E test...

Awaiting an explanation of why that matters ...

 

[Blue .45]

It could've been an opportunity for Remington to completely monopolize the American shotgun market and possibly put their main competitors out of business. Instead they permitted Mossberg to demonstrate that they too make a quality product and gain some of the market share. Many civilians choose the guns that the Police and Military use. In addition to which, they could've made more money. Besides, I seriously thought the 870 was, at some point, in use by the military.

Edited to add: It also opens the door for Mossberg to say stuff like this

Remington may have refrained from participating because they did not wish to risk their their already-strong reputation--winning a military contract would have had little impact on Remington's strong police and civilian market, but failing the mil-spec test could have had a serious negative impact on sales.

 

[scout26]

Get the one that fits you, you'll like it and will shoot it. Both (and others) will fit the needs you stated.

Good fit, then BA/UU/R is what you need. The name on the side doesn't really matter.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I like the 870's....

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW, short "tactical" shotguns aside, the Wingmaster has better balance and swing with a hunting barrel.

If you want to shoot birds with a gun that will reliably shoot any shell in any weather, not require much cleaning, and not break the bank, the Wingmaster is a top choice. It has been since 1950.

My hunting buddy does amazingly well in our club's doubles trap league with one. Outshoots a bunch of guys with O/U's and semiautos.

 

[trueblue1776]

Wingmaster El Beastio Grande

It would be cool to see the repair count for Moss 500 Vs. Rem 870 from a big time gunsmith.

As I said before, My wing master is over 50 years old, I had the ejector replaced 5 years ago. I had gone for about six years on a broken ejector. It still would eject 99.99999% w/o the ejector. The gunsmith said that rivet took a team of mules to get out and he would never replace an 870 ejector again for $80. That is the toughest, most utilitarian gun there is.

 

[Hawk]

But the old guys at the range, guys who can afford anything they want and know their guns, have Wingmasters and Model 12's to supplement their expensive break-actions...

I've noticed this where I shoot as well. Blaser F3 next to a Wingmaster, both showing a lot of wear. I got picked on for my 870TB but only because it still had bluing on the action bars which, it turns out, is a faux pas.

 

[Dave McCracken]

4061, you will NEVER see me call the Mossbergs junk. They are good shotguns. That includes the red headed step chiild Maverick.

The 870 is just plain better, and better than anything else.

BTW, the only 1911s I ever owned or own are Colts. There's others?

 

[Leadhead]

I'm with the people who suggest that you try them both for feel.....they are different.

 

[sm]

Get the Combo

Combo meaning a Shotgun with both a longer smoothbore barrel for clays and hunting and shorter smoothbore barrel with the rifle sights.

They do these in 12 and 20 bore.
New and Used guns

870 Wingmasters and Express
1300
Ithaca
Mossberg

[strike]McWendy's & SonicKing [/strike] *whups*


Oh, yeah I recommend a Dr. Pepper , the fries and ...ya know, apple pies always go good with Combo's .

 

[Dave McCracken]

As to why Remington did not submit the 870 for testing....

The specs demanded an ambidextrous safety. Remington declined to retool for a variant run of 20-50K shotguns total when that was about a month's production of 870s.

And, pics from the sandboxes show plenty of 870s. As in all wars of recent vintage, shotguns show up that come from irregular channels.

 

[sm]

dfarriswheel

Search his username for additonal information on 870 vs Mossberg and Miltary Testing.

Ya know, sometimes Military and LEO get stuff from Lowest Bidder, Politics, and Dirty Pool.


Don't eat the big white mint - Roadhouse

 

[CSA 357]

I would get the 870, i have been hunting with them for years, but to tell the truth my house gun is a mod 12 winchester csa

 

[sm]

Zip your pants back up boys, we ain't gonna have a pissing contest

...we done had these already

Search is your friend.

Which 870 for HD?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=250767&highlight=870+Mossberg

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3055674&postcount=4



Remmington 870 or Mossberg 500

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=195620&highlight=870+Mossberg


Now Mr. D is not only a Master Watchmaker, also a Master Colt Revolver Smith, and Gunsmith in who knows what all he has umpteen bazillion years of experience in.
He is NOT a parts changer, he is a Smith, there is a difference.

Not to mention a heck of a nice guy.

 

[sm]

dfariswheel wrote on
January 8th, 2004,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=712955&postcount=2


First, I'd do a search on this forum for info on the 870/590. There's a BUNCH of info from both sides.

Now to unload something off my chest:

The government chose Mossberg for two reasons:
1. PRICE. (always the main thing).
2. Mossberg passed the famous required government shotgun test.

The government shotgun test is what I want to unload on.

The inference, (pushed by Mossberg) is that the only gun that could pass the "grueling" test was Mossberg, and therefore Mossberg makes the best, most durable shotgun.

Here's the truth.
Remington OWNS the pump shotgun market, civilian, police, and most military units that get to CHOOSE the guns they use.

With 90% Plus of the police market, and the vast majority of the commercial market, Remington simply decided not to submit a gun for testing.

WHY?

Two reasons: Realistic outcome of the bid, and risk to market share for no real gain.

Look at it from a manufacturers stand point.
You have nothing much to gain, and a lot to loose.
Remington's market is the commercial and police market. The military never bought that many shotguns anyway.

If you submit a gun for testing in an attempt to sell a limited number of guns, you run the risk of mis-adventure.
Bad luck, bad karma, or a hidden, one-in a million flaw COULD cause even an 870 to fail during testing.

You can write you own Mossberg advertising in that event. "Mossberg, the world's best shotgun, that passed the test Remington FAILED".

"Mossberg, the choice of PROs, proven by the US government to be a better gun than the weaker Remington".

And on, and on.

The second reason, is a realistic appraisal of the government bid.
Simply put, it costs less to make a Mossberg with it's stamped parts and cast aluminum receiver, than it costs Remington to build a steel framed gun with heavier parts.

In truth, most any good quality shotgun could pass the government test.
This means that in the final analysis, Mossberg could under price Remington, and would get the bid, irrespective of how much better the 870 preformed in the test.
All that's required is that the gun PASS the test, not better the other gun.

If two makers pass the test the cheaper priced gun gets the bid.

Remington never had a chance of getting the bid, the amount of guns at rock-bottom pricing would not be a money-making affair for Remington, and the possible damage to their reputation and through it their market share, just wasn't worth the potential trouble.

So, the Mossberg government test hype is just that....hype.

Bottom line: As I've said in a number of posts: The police voted with their dollars in the shotgun market dispute. 90% Plus of law enforcement agencies use the 870, even though the other guns are cheaper.

The reason is, an unequaled reputation of durability, quality, and reliability, that ISN'T hype.
Mossberg and everyone else can only dream about that reputation.

As a "civilian" it really doesn't make much difference which gun you buy, you're unlikely to shoot it enough to wear it out, or have problems in a life time of shooting.

Since you have to pay for your own gun. you likely won't subject it to the kind of abusive treatment street cops give their guns.

The police DO abuse their guns, and so far, the only modern gun that will stand up to that treatment is the 870.

When 90% of pros are using one specific gun, that should tell you something.

You're choice.

 

[Blue .45]

sm, thanks for your response. I came came across that piece while attempting to locate other information about the 500. You answered several other questions I had as well. Good post!

4061, you will NEVER see me call the Mossbergs junk.

I never meant to imply that you did. I've read many of your posts and understand you're extremely knowledgeable about firearms. I just thought it seemed logical that Remington would sell many more units than Mossberg if they had been in production for twice as long. However, as you pointed out in an earlier post, the 870 isn't as old as I thought it was, so it's a mute point. I was in no way trying to question your expertise.

While I'm at it, Apologies to condoor for my part in getting us sidetracked.

 

[10-Ring]

Easu one 870!

 

[sm]

You are welcome.

My contention has always been gun fit to shooter and shooter having correct basic fundamentals.

No tool is ever any better than the user of said tool. - anon

Focus on the target - not the equipment - Will Fennell

JShirley for instance prefers a Mossberg. For HIM it fits HIM. Not only him physically also HIS Tasks.

So one really has to arm themselves with knowledge and be Brutally Honest with themselves.
What am I going to do with this gun?
What level of experience and skills will I need?

It does not matter if one is a Champion Clay Shooter, a 3Gunner, Upland Bird Hunter, Slug only zone Deer Hunter, Turkey Hunter...etc.

We have shotgunners and we have those that own a shotgun, there is a difference in the two.

WE tend to brush with a broad brush too many things.
WE tend to fall into Mob Mentality, and Parrot the Mentality of the Mob and Marketing Folks.

The best kept secret is gas semi auto in 20 gauge. Has been for too many years and will continue to be.

The practice of setting up home guns, no matter if shotgun, rifle, or handgun, for the smaller member of the household is another proven practice.
A bigger person can effectively use a smaller firearm - a smaller person cannot always effectively use a bigger firearm.

Yeah so the 870 is what it is, proven and all that.
Nobody says you cannot do a 20 gauge instead of 12 gauge.
Nobody says a 1100, Beretta 303, 390 20 gauge is "wrong" and if that is what you have, the wife, GF, can use it, it will be "wrong".

I know one old boy that has nice guns, I mean nice clay and hunting guns.
This old boy has two JC Higgens he used for everything and having a ball.
One is a 12 , the other a 20, with fixed chokes, and he give (best recall) $85 for one and $95 for the other.

He can flat shoot! He has lots of trigger time, still he uses these for everything, including home duty.

It is the shooter - not the shooting iron. - anon

 

[gak]

870. Workhorse, easy to maintain, easy to find parts, feels like a sturdy quality product. Everybody should have one. (Or two)

 

[spankaveli]

If you can, try finding a used 26" 870 & pick up an 18.5" barrel

i bought a used 28" for 175 and a 18.5" barrel for 125. 300 for both guns, in essense.

of course, i could have done better had i been more patient and waited to find a used 18.5" barrel.