Usefullness of 30-30 in "Modern Combat"

[Matrix187]

I loved my win 94, but I like my cheaply made ChiCom SKS 20" /w Tech Peep sights even more. The ammo is dirt cheap, and the gun can shoot better than I can.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I'm not active in the military. If I enlisted or were drafted, I'd probably be provided with a weapon so that point is moot. Unless this occurs, my war would be defending my family in the country. And I don't own a fortress, so we'd most likely have to flee. Therefore stockpiling thousands of rounds does me no good if I have to leave them behind. Realistically, I'll only be able to carry a small amount of ammunition

Yes, but the thread title says modern combat.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I didn't want to wade into this silly thread but I'm tired of folks thinking that 30-30 is closer to 300wby than it is to 7.62x39mm. Buy a chrony and use it farther than 5 feet from the muzzle people

Comparisons to 7.62x39 vs 30-30 are useless till you subtract at a minimum of 100 fps from quoted 30-30 velocities which are given for those mythical 24" barrels

http://www.realguns.com/archives/120.htm

the new fangled 160grn hornady load puts out 2287fps in a 20" bbl

in my 20" ar15 the 154grn wolf load with a similar BC puts out 2115fps

That's only 175 fps diffrence and 4grns of bullet weight and $20. In my book that makes em pretty similar and comparisons valid in the same manner as 308vs30-06 and this compares cheap-o x39 to the most high tech 30-30 made. Bottom line is excluding the 30rem, 7.62x39 is the closest match in terms of performance to 30-30 PERIOD

Now that's just factory ammo. For us handloaders the Hornady 30-30 ammo is pretty much impossible to beat.... But ....We can best the 154grn wolf loading by another 100fps with a much higher BC bullet

Forger 170grn 30-30 ammo, the crap is underloaded. I chronied one box at less than 1900fps. I can do that with x39 with the exact same bullet

 

[PhaedrusTheMad]

Yes, but the thread title says modern combat.

If the SHTF, and I had to defend my family against armed men, I'd argue that this qualifies as "modern combat."

 

[Brian41]

Quote:
.30-30 as in lever action Marlin or Winchester?

possible advantages?

Ammo in every Wal-Mart and country hardware store

No magazines to fumble with or lose

Load on the move

Simple operation
You've just described my SKS...

Except I can still get ammo for that at $200/1k.

Makes practicing easier.

Please tell me where you get x39 for $200 per thousand rounds

 

[saturno_v]

I saw chrono results at the range from 20" barrels where the differences from the advertised speed is minimum..

2350-2370 for 150 gr. Vs 2390 published for Remington

I never chronoed the Leverevolution yet

But I cannot get anywhere near the advertised velocities for the 7,62 X 39 with my MAK-90

Nobody said that the 30-30 is closer to a 300 Wby than a 7,62 X 39

But the 30 WCF and the Russian round are definitely not ballistic twins at least at short distances...closest match mybe, equal not.

I never tried the Wolf....maybe the Wolf 154 gr is particularly hot...then you can get a hot 30-30 170 gr. from Grizzly Cartridges, 2300 fps tested out of a 20" barrel..a bit pricey though...$52 a box.

 

[THe Dove]

30-30 in the hands of a good shooter with a shot less than 150 yds = mission acomplished. Great round for knock down (slow, heavy, power punch). Shot placement is the trick to any round though. Just my opinion.

 

[JShirley]

Several different issues here. Forgive me if I sound a trifle pedantic.

The 30-30 is a cartridge. That cartridge is most commonly found in lever guns, but has also been chambered in bolt-actions, single-shots, and slide-actions ("pumps"). I've seen examples of the other three types in folks' hands (I really wanted that pump).

For self-defense or guerilla warfare, a lever-action should be okay, depending on range and tactics. It's definitely a fine reactionary weapon, quick to shoulder and relatively rapid-firing. Lever-actions are fragile compared to good bolt-actions or self-loading rifles, so are not optimal for military use.

As for lever accuracy, my Marlin 1894 would shoot barely over MOA with the inexpensive low-power shotgun scope I mounted and GA Arms ammo.

As for power, I think any centerfire round stronger than a .22 Magnum is fine for combat. Mc, I respect you, but I do think it's humorous that so many U.S. gunners think the second-biggest failure in U.S. military rifles is Teh Ultimate! combat rifle. The brigade I was attached to in Afghanistan had a whole connex full of them. They were in the connex because we weren't using them. (I did look wistfully at the boxes and boxes full of new, in-wrapper M14 mags.)

John

 

[Harve Curry]

I don't know about the Marlin or Winchester lever actions being flimsy. Plenty are used hard everyday even now on horseback banging around. The Mexican revolution saw alot of hard wear on them and they were popular. I've seen the wood worn thin on buth butt stocks and forends. Cracked and broken stocks but the actions worked.

 

[LeonCarr]

Have killed animals with the SKS. Have killed animals with the .30-30. Either one will work, but I prefer the .30-30. More accurate, hits harder(IME the 150-170 grain soft points are much better stoppers than the 7.62x39 whose bullets seldom expand, even the soft points and hollow points).

I would put a 94 or 336 up against an SKS for accuracy any day of the week. Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[R.W.Dale]

The 30-30 is a cartridge. That cartridge is most commonly found in lever guns, but has also been chambered in bolt-actions, single-shots, and slide-actions ("pumps"). I've seen examples of the other three types in folks' hands (I really wanted that pump).

add one more to your list

 

[shevrock]

Dear lord in heaven. That thing's beautiful. what is it?

 

[Harve Curry]

One of those BFR's that shoot 1/2 MOA if you can hold it that steady.

 

[gvnwst]

Harry, was that rhetorical?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Harry, was that rhetorical?

it doesn't matter as I'll freely admit it completely applies to me and my handgunning skills, or lack thereof.

 

[shevrock]

Either way it's shiny. what kind of bulk prices come from 30-30 until you start reloading. by bulk i mean like X$=100-1000rnds

 

[Mike Kerr]

JShirley wrote:

As for power, I think any centerfire round stronger than a .22 Magnum is fine for combat. Mc, I respect you, but I do think it's humorous that so many U.S. gunners think the second-biggest failure in U.S. military rifles is Teh Ultimate! combat rifle. The brigade I was attached to in Afghanistan had a whole connex full of them. They were in the connex because we weren't using them. (I did look wistfully at the boxes and boxes full of new, in-wrapper M14 mags.)

John

Please, please tell us why it's the second biggest failure? I'll bet its weight and portability of the entire combat package. Please don't tell us it is too hard to control in selective fire.

Isn't the biggest reason the patform was "tanked" and called a failure because of " bean counters" and other behind the scenes influences ?

regards,

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Please tell me where you get x39 for $200 per thousand rounds

Wolf(The cheap stuff, not reccomended for America guns) can be had for around $265/1000 at gun stores, maybe cheaper elsewhere.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The M14 program was pretty horribly mismanaged, to be fair to the "bean counters." A ton of R&D money and lots of time was spent to ultimately field a product-improved Garand that was basically no major improvement over prototypes that existed in 1945. In the finest tradition of really bad government procurement debacles, the M14 also had a couple good lies wrapped up in its development, namely the claim that it would be cheap to make because existing Garand tooling would be usable and, of course, the claim that 7.62x51 was suitable for an assault rifle.

All that said, the real flaw with the M14 for general service rifle use was the cartridge more than the platform. Just about everyone on the planet except for the imbeciles in charge of US Army Ordnance had actually studied combat from both World Wars and drawn valid conclusions about optimizing infantry rifles for how combat really happened. Army Ordnance refused to learn anything from their own data (or anyone else's) and instead forced an overpowered, bulky and heavy round onto NATO when what was needed was something like 7.62x39, 7.92x33 or 7x43.

Rommel said that in a close range fight (and most of them are) the victor is often the guy with one more round in his magazine. We'll never know how many guys died along the way with M14s, FALs or G3s in their hands because the other guy with the AK had ten more rounds in the gun and a larger basic load in his kit. Or because he could get accurate enough shots off faster with his AK.

But, an M14 in, say, 7x43/280 British would have been a different animal -- still not a real big step forward in terms of state of the art in terms of ergonomics and such, but it likely would have lasted longer in service when it ran up against the AK-47 than the M14 as issued did.

 

[TheDuke]

Would I feel under gunned with a thirty-thirty up against a bunch of Taliban whakcos with AK’s ? Yep, probably would. But if your “modern combat” can be defined by a bunch of slime-ball thugs looting the neighborhood with intent to rob, rape and pillage…Just explode a couple of heads with the old lever gun and see how fast the rest of them decide their original idea wasn’t so good after all and maybe they should go somewhere else and leave you alone…The best combat gun is the one you have in your hands at the moment you need it.

 

[jerry46]

I read once where one of the more famous soldiers in Vietnam (and I'm ashamed to say I can't remember his name) requested and was gived a Marlin 336 in .35 caliber to perform his job. He was a tunnel rat. He shot it with open sights. I guess it is all what you need it for.

 

[shevrock]

If he was tunnel rat i don't know why he'd want a 336. ESPECIALLY in the tunnels. outside would be another story i presume. I can only imagine trying to get a 30-30 336 into a tunnel you can hardly fit in,then bring it to bear.

EDIT: change 30-30 to .35 *sheepish smile* sry

 

[HorseSoldier]

But if your “modern combat” can be defined by a bunch of slime-ball thugs looting the neighborhood with intent to rob, rape and pillage…Just explode a couple of heads with the old lever gun and see how fast the rest of them decide their original idea wasn’t so good after all and maybe they should go somewhere else and leave you alone…The best combat gun is the one you have in your hands at the moment you need it.

True enough. And, unless the hypothetical looters were organized enough to not really be a mob, or really hungry, even a couple warning shots (or misses) going nearby would be enough to send most packing.

 

[notorious]

If he was tunnel rat i don't know why he'd want a 336. ESPECIALLY in the tunnels. outside would be another story i presume. I can only imagine trying to get a 30-30 336 into a tunnel you can hardly fit in,then bring it to bear.

Not just bringing it to bear in those conditions but can you imagine the report of that round going off in the tight quarters?

Using a .45ACP is bad enough in there, I would imagine.

 

[shevrock]

Using a .45ACP is bad enough in there, I would imagine.

I saw this thing on the military channel a long time ago. It said that basically when you fire a .45 in the tunnel your eardrums go pop. The created a .410 revolver, especially for the Tunnel rats.