Using a .223 for a meat gun. A question.

[CoalTrain49]

While reading the .223 vs 357 for HD thread that is running I noticed several people claim that the .223 works just fine for deer sized game. I'm not disputing that, I don't own a .223, but I would like someone to please educate me about this.

I've shot a few deer in my time but always used a larger caliber, the smallest being a 7mm. I know a smaller caliber will work, I'm just saying that's what I've used. The theory used to be a good game bullet was something on the order of 150 grains or more that mushroomed and stayed in one piece.

Anyway, to get back to the question of the .223. There are probably a 100 different types of bullets out there for the cartridge and dozens of types of factory ammo available. The military has even developed a special bullet to compensate for a perceived deficiency.

Apparently, bullets have been designed to fragment on impact to enhance the ability of the small caliber to be more efficient. How does this work if you are a meat hunter? Do you use these bullets? If you do doesn't it destroy a lot of meat if shots are not well placed? The option of a non-fragmenting bullet would reduce the rounds efficiency and probably the reason for the cartridge being considered inadequate for deer hunting in many states, but that is speculation.

What bullets are you hunters using that are effective without lost edible meat due to grenade type bullets?

Again, I don't own a .223 and just trying to understand how they are being used.

 

[Revoliver]

Bonded bullets like Federal Fusions, Accubonds and Barnes all copper bullets as a few examples just like any other caliber/chambering.

 

[Water-Man]

Nosler Partition - Speer Gold Dot - Barnes TSX

 

[Davek1977]

I've taken both mule deer and whitetails using the 64 gr Fusion loading from Federal. I would look for quality softpoint bullets DESIGNED for deer hunting, like Nosler Partitions, Winchester Power Points, etc. Fragmenting rounds are used for varmints and whatnot, and would make an extremely poor choice for hunting deer like game, as they don't penetrate very well. Different bullets are designed for different purposes, and fragmenting rounds have absolutely no business being used for deer n anything but an emergency situation. Whether you are using a .223 or a .375 H&H, you need a bullet that can adequately penetrate to the vital area with reliable expansion. NO fragmenting round has been designed, nor is appropriate for shooting deer sized game. When using a marginal caliber, bullet selection becomes even more imperative.

 

[ECVMatt]

I think the others have nailed it. They make several hunting style bullets for the .223 that are controlled expansion type of bullets. I think the key is using them on smaller type deer. I would not personally use them on large deer, but would have no problem using them on smaller Texas/Southern whitetail deer at short range. The problem becomes what size deer you have and what range you hunt them at. I think the .223 works well under specific situations, but would not be my choice for a universal deer cartridge....and that is a whole different thread.

 

[wetpowder]

A friend of mine used my gun to take a buck and doe. He used FMJ, all I had.

 

[EchoM70]

A friend of mine used my gun to take a buck and doe. He used FMJ, all I had.

Woah, not good. Really bad idea, FMJ's are the absolute worst choice for a hunting bullet. Not to mention they're illegal for hunting in most or all states for that very reason.

The .223 is capable of taking deer for sure, just with the right bullets designed with big game in mind. With advances in bullet technology like the Accubond, Partition, Barnes TSX/TTSX I wouldn't feel under-gunned setting in a tree stand.

 

[JDGray]

I've taken a few small does with 55gr Nosler ballistic tip bullets. They were fired out of a 22-250 though. Both double lung shots, both dropped within 50yrds, both had clean exit holes, both shot at 300+ yards. Not the best caliber for big animals, so shot placement is more critical.

 

[hartcreek]

Coal Train.....you live in the same state as me. You can forget about using a puny 5.56 as it is NOT legal in this state.

 

[Lj1941]

Winchester 64 Power Point and Speer 70 Semi-spitzer are two that I have personal knowlege of. Their are other premium bullets available for what has become IMO our most popular caliber.

 

[jmr40]

Coal Train.....you live in the same state as me. You can forget about using a puny 5.56 as it is NOT legal in this state.

That could be a problem.

The last count I had showed only 5 states where rifles were legal, and 223 was not. Other than archaic laws there is no reason not to deer hunt with 223 using bullets designed for deer hunting. Generally speaking softpoint bullets using 60 gr or heavier bullets do just fine. There are some lighter bullets designed for big game, Barnes in particular, but I'd avoid FMJ and very lightweight expanding bullets designed for varmits.

 

[rule303]

The .223/5.56 certainly can work for deer sized game with the proper bullets and shot placement. There are better choices. If it is all you have, and are patient enough to wait for a perfect broadside shot, go for it. At close range, even well constructed bullets will expand violently and lack penetration, and at longer ranges there isn't enough energy for a guaranteed clean kill. The .223 is a fine cartridge for many purposes, but it is marginal at best for most deer hunting.

 

[browningguy]

I've used the Barnes TSX load and a 60gr. soft point.

 

[M1GarandDeerHunter]

I have a friend who works for the Feds controlling problem animals in northern Wisconsin. He says he has killed over 500 deer with an AR15 and heavy for caliber bullets. 75gr I think. I have other friends who have killed whitetails using the same above. They all say it works.

I think its still a really bad idea for the ave. guy. What was ever wrong with a 30-06? JMHO

 

[Davek1977]

Whether the .223 is adaquet for hutning deer is seemingly a timeless debate, and one that neither side will give up on, it seems. I can only speak as to my experience. Every deer I've shot with my .223 has been just as dead as any deer I've shot with my 7mm Rem Mag. When you put the bullets where they are supposed to go, and use a bullet designed and capable of penetration, the .223 simply works. You can make all the arguments in the world for or against it, but real world experience beats conjecture any day, and I've got to wonder how many of the naysayers have actually ever attempted it? Why are there so many people out there so sure it won't work "for the average guy" despite hearing about several "average guys" being successful using it? If I put a bullet in the vitals and either had a hard time recovering, or lost, a deer, I'd hardly be arguing for its use. The fact is, I've killed deer up to 200 lbs....big South Dakota Whitetails and Mule deer, not the 60 lb Southern deer some are used to.....with an AR-15 chambered in .223. At this point, I'm 100% successful in doing so. Now, if I were to be hunting somewhere where I might get one opportunity, one shot all season, I might reconsider my choice. However, I have the luxury of being patient and having a loot of deer around. If filling my tag was the sole reason for going hunting, I could have a doe hanging in the shop by 9 AM on any given day. They're not hard to find. I have time to pick my shot usually, or pass if need be. I don't ever feel I "HAVE" to shoot at a deer....if one gets away, there's another opportunity around the bend or over the hill.

What was ever wrong with a 30-06?

Noting, if thats what you choose to use. As i said, my "other" deer rifle is a 7mm Rem Mag. However, when hiking all day up and down hills, through ravines, across canyons and whatnot....That ol' Model 70 gets pretty heavy by the end of the day. Too, there's issues of recoil and muzzleblast....not major concerns when hunting, but yet enough of a concern many don't practice with bigger calibers as much as they should. I'd rather have someone who can shoot 1.5 in groups at 100 yards with a .223 AR than someone who can't hit the broadside of a barn at 50 yards with his 06 or 7mm. Everything is relative, and every choice has a trade-off. The simple fact is, I've yet to meet an armor plated deer, and pretty much any modern centerfire in .223/5.56 and above is perfectly capable of harvesting them.

 

[ZGunner]

^^^ Agreed.

Shot placement is most definitely key. I would rather take a 100 yard shot on a deer with my M77 Compact (.223, 3x9-40 scope) than my Garand (30-06, irons). Simply because I feel a lot more comfortable putting a shot where I want it when my target is magnified. The .223 is giving up ~100 grains to the 30-06 but that heavier bullet doesn't do what I want it to if I can't hit what I'm aiming at.

Note: I'm terrible with irons and I know it. YMMV

 

[silicosys4]

^^ well, if it comes down to that, I would take my Ruger 10/22t with its 24x scope over an AR15 under 75 yards because I'm a slightly better shot with the 10/22t, and if you use proper shot placement and keep your range under 100 yards, either will easily kill a deer. I would be willing to bet good money that more deer have been killed with a .22lr than a .223 anyways.
Both are illegal to use on deer where I'm at, something I've never been at odds with. So if it ever comes down to me shooting a deer with a .223 I'm just going to head shoot it with a .22lr instead and save ammo and keep noise down...or whatever because that will never happen.

 

[Davek1977]

While I would never feel undergunned with a .223 hunting deer, I also would never dream of hunting deer with a .22 rimfire either. There's marginal, and then there's just plain reckless. I have no doubt thousands of deer have killed with rimfires, but I also have no doubt that thousands have been wounded and not recovered. The .223 can both accurately put shots on target, but also has the power, speed, and bullet availability to reach the vitals. The same simply could not be said for the .22 rimfire, ESPECIALLY at 100 yards. I've shot and hit PRAIRIE DOGS at 100 yards with a 22 LR without killing them consistently, be it head or body shots, so I definitely question the "either will easily kill a deer at 100 yards" claim. It simply doesn't jive with real world experience shooting much smaller animals, by the hundreds if not thousands (South Dakota has plenty of prairie dogs, and I spent a good portion of my youth hanging out in dog towns with a .22 LR). To attempt to use such a cartridge on an animal weighing 100 lbs or more is rightfully criminal in most jurisdictions. If I can't kill small game reliably at 100 yards with a rimfire using any commercially available ammo, there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm using it on deer sized game unless I was starving to death and had no other option. Even then, a 100 yard shot would be wholly out of the question, and I'd do whatever I could to reduce that range to 10-15 yards. I've had to dispatch cows with a .22LR, and even at point blank range, it has failed to do the job with a single shot at times. So, I ask, how much REAL WORLD experience do you have with shooting big animals @ point blank range.......or even little ones at extended ranges....with a .22lr, and what leads you to believe that the 22LR will "easily" kill a deer at 100 yards?

FYI-22 rimfire hollowpoint-134 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, with a velocity of 1260 fps

.223 Federal Fusion loading- 1239 ft lbs at about 3000 fps.

AS you can see, the .223 has roughly 9.25x times the muzzle energy and roughly 1700 fps over the .22 LR. Most people like to have a gun that produces a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs of energy to hunt deer with. No matter how you cut it, the .22 is NOT a deer round most people would consider for anything other than maybe spotlighting deer at extremely close range, something most true hunters will never have occasion to do. Attempting to justify the use of a .22 becasue some people use a .223 is just plain silly.

 

[Ky Larry]

I've seen what a 5.56 will do to a man. With proper shot placement and the right bullet, it will kill deer.

 

[hartcreek]

Maybe so but in Washington state you will be fined and lose hunting rights. .243 is the smallest that can be used on deer.

 

[627PCFan]

Surely you can load the Nosler Partions in a 223 but I think they were originally meant be loaded in the 220 Swift and 22-250.

 

[RCArms.com]

I've had good experiences with the 62 grain Federal Fusion rounds on MN whitetails. All shots have been under 125 yards and have been one shot kills.

I'd be comfortable taking deer with any round deemed to be legal in MN including the .223 and shot placement is vastly more important than round selection with the single exception of the 6.8SPC cartridge. Epic failure using that cartridge in the past for me has eliminated this caliber from my acceptable hunting choices.

Best,

Don

 

[hardluk1]

coaltrain49 If your a hunter you would not have bothered to ask about a 223. Comes down to this, in Washington state where the you live a minimum cartridge size is 6mm so it really does not matter about a 223 as it is not legal . By a 243 and go hunting.

 

[RCArms.com]

coaltrain49 If your a hunter you would not have bothered to ask about a 223. Comes down to this, in Washington state where the you live a minimum cartridge size is 6mm so it really does not matter about a 223 as it is not legal . By a 243 and go hunting.

If you review the question asked by the OP, he is not inquiring about choosing to use a .223 in WA state. In fact, he states that he doesn't even own one. He's looking for info from others that have chosen to use .223 on deer and how well it performed.

 

[Bush Pilot]

Some of you guys need to go back and read the OP. CoalTrain didn't say he was going to hunt deer with a .223, it appears he was curious about the bullet selection. BTW, we can't use a .223 for deer or elk, that's a good policy in my book.