Using AK or FAL for Home Defense

[my762buzz]

If a carbine:

1. Get a noise suppressor if possible via taxstamp.

2. Use a bullet that will only penetrate 10-15 inches in ballistic gel which is no more than a handgun hollow point bullet will. The deformed bullet will not likely make it very far if it even exits the torso. Example Hornady TAP

Just for real perspective, OO buck penetrates way more than 15 inches of ballistic gel.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Which one should I get? I will definitely also have a bayonet attached when using whichever one I pick in order to deter an assailant from grabbing the gun. Input please.

Makes me want to cut a 2x4 to the length of an fal and duct tape a knife on the end, then run through my house and see how often I get stuck on something.

Those bayonets look nifty on the wall, but that is about all they are good for outside of the trenches of WWI and II.

If the FAL is your thing, I'd maybe think about an M1 carbine, instead. Lighter, shorter and all around easier to maneuver.

 

[amd6547]

I own a 7.62x39 AK, and I would not use it for HD...and I certainly would not consider using a 308.
However, I have been shooting a 5.45 Saiga Kalashnikov, and it has become my HD longarm of choice, even over my beloved M1 carbine.
The 5.45 round is perfect for SD use, and it is cheap. Aim Surplus is selling 2160rd crates right now for $250.

 

[mortablunt]

I forgot to add this earlier: The reason why I can think about getting a full sized rifle is because my room directly overlooks the stairs and any rounds I fire down at a bad guy will go into the earth. It's funny that guys getting an AR for a HD gun get a free pass, but those who choose an AK get chewed out.

 

[Mike1234567]

I probably missed those threads but I can't recall most people recommending an AR for HD. If I wanted a rifle for HD I think I'd look ad a .45 ACP carbine. Maybe a Hi-Point 4595TS?

 

[ForumSurfer]

It's funny that guys getting an AR for a HD gun get a free pass, but those who choose an AK get chewed out.

That's the internet for you.

I'm actually surprised no one said the ubiquitous line "You should get a used glock, that's in the same price range."

I forgot to add this earlier: The reason why I can think about getting a full sized rifle is because my room directly overlooks the stairs and any rounds I fire down at a bad guy will go into the earth.

Funny thing about bad guys is that they are likely to be moving targets. They won't stand in your "kill box." You may need to move about the house. I'd rather use something with ammo that I'd feel safe firing in any direction downrange from myself or family members. But if you are planning as using this room as the family's "retreat/last stand" area, that makes some sense...but I'd still rather have a lighter round, lighter rifle and less penetrating ammo. I'd really, really hate to fire my 308 in a hallway. The pressure alone could deafen.

 

[Slamfire]

What about a nice shotgun and buckshot?

You shoot a FAL in your house, you will be patching your walls, your neighbor's walls, and maybe fixing some sheet metal damgage.

 

[nathan]

Always have a good defense lawyer after the fact .

 

[JShirley]

I'm on my 2nd FAL pattern rifle. They're hard to manuever quickly inside, and so, those who've suggested using something else are on the money. (A 16" bl AK would be great, though.)

However.

Those who suggest not using one because of terminal ballistics- what will happen after the round strikes a body- have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're giving misinformation that's absolutely as incorrect as the idea that shotguns don't need to be aimed.

A high-speed, light-for-caliber well-designed rifle bullet will penetrate less in tissue than common "duty caliber" handguns, while producing dramatically more effective results. These same light-for-caliber rounds will also penegrate less in building structures than ordinary defensive handgun JHPs. The only real downside is blast.

I was present for an ND from a .270, 23 years ago. The 130 grain SP bullet split on entering the ceiling, and the fragments did not penetrate the plywood and shingle of the roof.

Now, if folks are speaking of using FMJs in 124 or 147 weights, that's a different story. But a light varmint .308 from an 18-20" barrel, or even the polymer-tipped hunting rounds in my 20-rd metric mag, are going to be hell on a close-range intruder, with much LESS danger to the neighbors than your 9mm or .45.

PS- I broke the rifle during my bayonet course, too. I weighed 150 at the time.

 

[dprice3844444]

rem 870

 

[Dr.Rob]

I witnessed my brother shoot a 240 gallon hot water tank with a 165 grain sbtsp .30-06 at a distance of 15 feet. The bullet shattered as it went through , splitting the liner to the floor and the jacket exited the far side, piercing tank #2's insulation, scarring and denting it but (thank god) not penetrating, it bounched off and left a mark in the concrete wall. So that was about 9-12 inches of insulation, two thick sheet metal walls, 2 feet of water in a column... and our solar system being out for a week while we waited for repairs.

When our ears stopped ringing we realized the smoke alarm was going off upstairs and down, and we had a basement rapidly flooding with water.

Expect similar results with a .308.

 

[Brockak47]

ok, well a good answer to plinking and home defense would be a Beretta CX4 storm tactical carbine, which is a pistol caliber carbine rifle it's perfect aside from a cheap shotgun or pistol.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...a=X&ei=-WuPTpCuBPKksQKj6dS3AQ&ved=0CEEQ8wIwAg

 

[JShirley]

Expect similar results with a similar (heavy) bullet. Or you can do as I suggested and load your mag with varmint rounds.

Over-penetration in structures is one of the primary reasons most response teams have gone to 5.56 carbines instead of 9mm subguns. Heavier, slower almost always equals more penetration, when we're talking about expanding rounds.

 

[Freightman]

Knew a man (now gone) who shot at a intruder with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag, did the job, but bullet went through two walls , through his fence, neighbor fence through neighbors wall and wounded his neighbor in the heel. He stooped the bad guy from stealing his wife's jewelry then spent three times what it was worth on the lawsuit and settlement. Get a 870 and forget the rifle for home defense.

 

[JShirley]

00 buck at close range will penetrate considerably further than the rounds I'm suggesting. :banghead:

You've just illustrated the problem with using a heavy handgun bullet for HD.

 

[Mike1234567]

I sense a little stress here.

 

[my762buzz]

Knew a man (now gone) who shot at a intruder with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag, did the job, but bullet went through two walls , through his fence, neighbor fence through neighbors wall and wounded his neighbor in the heel. He stooped the bad guy from stealing his wife's jewelry then spent three times what it was worth on the lawsuit and settlement. Get a 870 and forget the rifle for home defense.

So let me get this straight. He was using a very good design bullet that mushroomed flat as a pancake and even then continued forward with now virtually no sectional density against the laws of physics through walls, fence, other fence, and so on......or he happen to use a semi wad cutter maybe that is already known to be a fantastic penetrator?

I got a .454 Ruger loaded with 250 gr at 1500 fps all copper barnes hollow point bullets. I seen what they look like after passing several inches through living tissue. They expend plenty of energy very efficiently and create horrific terminal effects that are comparable to rifle performance. Flat and deformed copper bullets don't make great overpentration candidates. I would bet my life on their ability to cause maximum effect while reducing the potential of overpentration, and .454 has is a bit more overall capability than 44 mag. My point is that bullet design can overcome conventional drawbacks of caliber choice.

 

[56hawk]

Alternately, I am thinking of getting a 7.62x51 semiatuomatic FAL with the old style carrying handle, stamped metal barrel shroud, and wooden fixed stock. I saw at a gun show for about $550..

What is the barrel length on that FAL? I've got a 16" barrel on mine, and it's pretty handy indoors. They aren't that hard to swap either, so it might be worth changing if it's the long barrel.

As far as choosing between an AK and a FAL, I would definitely go with the FAL. The controls are set up much better. Also the FAL has an adjustable gas system, so you might be able to run reduced recoil ammo through it for home defense.

 

[JustinJ]

And don't listen to the crap about them not being reliable. Those people are idiots, plain and simple. Unless they are true 1965 Vietnam vets burned bad by the very first ones, don't listen to them (and don't listen to the Vietnam guys either, those rifles are NOT the same as the M4).

So does that mean the soldiers who managed to survive in Afghanastan at Wanut are idiots? I'm not gona redo the whole M4 reliability arguement, ecspecially since he can't get an actual M4 since he's a civilain and obviously cant afford a pre 86, but maybe tone it down a bit. Last i checked name calling was against the rules.

I do agree, the ak74 would be a much better option for home defense than the 47 or FAL but there is no need for it to be milled unless he likes carrying around extra weight. You won't find a more reliable semiauto than an Arsenal 74.

 

[Gord]

My parents are deeply distrustful of handguns and I also want to be able to plink, so a shotgun is out of the question.

Run-on sentences are bad, m'kay.

Plinking with a FAL is going to be a very loud and expensive endeavor. Plinking with an AK is probably not going to be the most satisfying thing in the world, owing to the crappy sights and so-so accuracy.

Take Dr. Rob's advice and get yourself a .22 rifle - you can find "banana mags" (verify function before counting on them for HD, though) for the Ruger 10/22, the Remington 597 and, I'm sure, for others as well. I sure wouldn't want to piss off anybody with 25 CCI Stingers pointed at my face, especially knowing that the recoil (or lack thereof) would probably allow for putting five of them there in the blink of an eye...

Secondary vote would be for a shotgun. They are inexpensive, multifunctional (probably more so than any other firearm) and both HD and cheap plinking loads are readily available. I can think of worse practice for serious use than shooting skeet, too - you will be learning to instinctively shoot at a very small, fast-moving target.

Heck, you could buy a .22 rifle and a Remington 870 for what you'd spend on an AK or a FAL.

If you're really set on a rifle, an AR of whatever flavor tickles your fancy would probably be your best option. If it really has to come down to an AK or a FAL, for your purposes it's the AK hands down.

 

[benEzra]

It's funny that guys getting an AR for a HD gun get a free pass, but those who choose an AK get chewed out.

That's because most AR's are .223/5.56x45mm, which penetrates less with the right loads than pistol rounds and buckshot, and most people assume you're thinking of an AK in 7.62x39mm, which tends to penetrate more.

A 7.62x39 AK in a brick house, using fragile JHP's (Hornady VMAX, Ulyanovsk 8M3, Cor-Bon JHP) might be an OK choice, but in most cases a .223 or 5.45x39 AK shooting fragile JHP will be better, IMO.

As far as length goes, even an AR with a 16" barrel and adjustable stock at full short, or an AK with a 16" barrel and short Warsaw Pact style stock, is as long a gun as I'd want to try to use in proximity to walls, doorways, and obstacles. A FAL with it's longer stock, longer (IIRC) receiver, and often-longer barrel would be a handful even with no bayonet.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

ditto poster #8. the SEAL teams use 9mm carbines for entry/close quarter combat weapns for some reason. actually +P 9mm 147gr TC fmj's.
bear in mind that Ayoob back years ago cautioned about 'over penetration' w/the 9mm that NYPD experienced with FMJ's.
I have a Marlin Camp 9mm (I built it and another for a nephew and a KelTec for another nephew) that I keep handy loaded with +P 124gr Golden sabre handloads. right by my 'Coach' 12ga Mag leaned in handy corner in bedroom.
a hit with a 'GS' Rem slug is gonna hurt like h*** believe me after seeiing results from shooting into wet newsprint and cardboard.

 

[macadore]

I would suggest an AK in 5.45 with a folding stock. The folding stock makes it more maneuverable in close quarters and the 5.45 is less likely to penetrate your neighbor's walls after it goes through yours (unless you live in a brick house).

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There are actually 7.62x51 rounds that will penetrate less than some 5.56x45. It is all about bullet construction. However, a FAL is harder to master than an AK - and the blast from a 16" .308 barrel is impressive. Having said that, training is such an important aspect of owning a firearm - which platform (or different choice) can you afford to get real, quality training with?

 

[Auto426]

I forgot to add this earlier: The reason why I can think about getting a full sized rifle is because my room directly overlooks the stairs and any rounds I fire down at a bad guy will go into the earth.

As was stated earlier, an intruder isn't just going to stand around in a wide open area and wait patiently while the residents get into a firing position and aquire a target with a large and cumbersome rifle. They are going to be moving around, and God forbid returning fire. You want a weapon that is light, easy to come on target, and effective. It's very hard to beat the simple point an click interface of a pump action shotgun for such a role.

Also, unless you live in a two story house with loose dirt floors, your rounds fired downwards are not going to go into the earth. They are going to be hitting some type of flooring and likely a concrete slab beneth it. The bullet could fragment upon hitting a hard floor surface, or it could ricochet and still be very deadly. You can never be certain how a bullet is going to react when striking a hard surface, so it's better not to take any chances.

I recommend Remmington 870 express or a Mossberg 500 loaded with good buckshot. They each will be cheaper than an AK or an FAL, and should leave enough money left over to buy a cheap Marlin model 60 or Ruger 10/22 for .22lr plinking and practice.