Using AK or FAL for Home Defense

[Ranger30-06]

Alright, final list of guns formed.

* Mossberg 500 w/ 20" barrel.
* Hi Point Carbine in 45ACP
* AK-74 underfolder
* SKS
* Beretta Cx4 Storm
* Marlin 1896

Good list! A couple notes though.

I love Mossbergs (obviously.) Nothing wrong there!

That High Point will be as ugly as sin, but it will just keep on ticking. If ANYTHING ever goes wrong, just send it to the factory and they'll fix it no questions asked and free of charge. The cool thing though is you can get a stock that looks just like the Beretta CX4 and have an equal quality gun with the best warranty ever heard of by humankind.

The Beretta and Marlin are both a little on the pricey side of things right now, but both are decent guns that would serve you well. Just keep that in mind

 

[Candiru]

Regarding how different rounds perform in drywall, I tested this. Turns out what gets stopped most easily is lightweight varmint or softpoint bullets in .223.

 

[Inebriated]

Without reading the thread, I'll answer... AK. A little toned down, and a little less recoil to help get on target. Also, it's shorter and more maneuverable.

I'll still pick my 870 over my AK or FAL.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The cool thing though is you can get a stock that looks just like the Beretta CX4 and have an equal quality gun with the best warranty ever heard of by humankind.

It works just as good but the quality isn't the same. If you compare the two side by side, the Hi Point feels alot cheaper than the Beretta.

 

[Tirod]

Home Defense is internet fantasy talk for "the end of the world as we know it." Zombie invasion. Or the latest grammatical dodge, "economic collapse." In the seventies, we used "the coming nuclear holocaust" as an excuse. Same old, same old. Speculative BS'ing about what could happen.

It doesn't exist for most of us. Buy a gun for the type shooting you prefer to do, and don't get too wrapped up into the paranoia of the Midnight Stalker tap, tap, tapping on your windowpane. If you don't, you'll wind up living in your mom's basement with no life other than a keyboard to the outside world.

If there is one dominant theme in these threads, it's the contrived pre-existing conditions that aren't being fixed, and the bold perps who need to be gunned down in a macho show of Castle Doctrine, supported with inane arguments about technicalities and namecalling to prove a point.

If you want to buy a gun, the best thing to do is decide what kind of shooting you'd like to do, and buy the best gun for that.

* Mossberg 500 w/ 20" barrel.
* Hi Point Carbine in 45ACP
* AK-74 underfolder
* SKS
* Beretta Cx4 Storm
* Marlin 1896

None of these do much of anything alike except load ammo and shoot it. That means the OP doesn't have any clue about what he wants to do, aside from just own it, because he can. None of them is particularly well suited to replace any other.

From another perspective, the seven guns we should own, there's no bolt action, no small pistol, no large pistol, and no .22.

No major power caliber pistol means someone's not really serious about home defense. Because that's what most American's use.

Like I said, HD is internet fantasy talk.

 

[hipoint]

this person wants a gun, talked his parents into letting him have one, and was asking for advice. Instead he got a bunch of folks arguing over what home defense is and isn't with a few folks picking at proper grammar usage as well... Nice job.

Get what you want man, I can advise you that I loved my FAL, but I also love my hunting rifle too. Don't shoot someone with it unless you have to, really have to. My guess is if you get one, show you're responsible with it, then they'll be easily talked into getting another gun or two. So, unless you're fairly well off get something affordable to shoot right now (most ammo is about a dollar a shot now) and most importantly get something you like. Any gun will handle an intruder, even a .25 derringer is better than a hammer and a maglite. Have fun with it, get something cool, and then talk the folks into letting you get something else. You've done it once already, do it again when you've shown them you're capable of not shooting yourself in the foot

 

[JHenry]

9mm car-15 should do ya well. all the goodness of a pistol round and all the fun of the ar 15 platform

 

[regal]

It will not have the range of a rifle, 150m at best. It will not be small and compact like a pistol. If anything, it combines the worst characteristics of both into one package and does neither well.

This is just not true, a pistol caliber carbine has one huge advantage over a pistol= shot placement.

And if there is one thing all the internet battles on calibers agree on shot placement is key, a stock makes a huge impact on shot placement, especially as you get older. For HD, obviously you want a one or two shot terminal stop. With a pistol, most people aren't that good, especially in a stressful situation.

Now ideally that one stop shot would be a 12ga, a 5.56 AR, or a AK-74. But the thing folks always forget is permanent hearing damage. Listening to music, understading your wife and daughter in convseration is very important to living a happy life.

Why do HD recommendations never include earpro muffs? Folks will chop the barrel and add a $1000 2 lb suppressor to an AR for "HD" before they will consider storing a pair of muffs with their HD weapon.?

Alright, final list of guns formed.

* Mossberg 500 w/ 20" barrel.
* Hi Point Carbine in 45ACP
* AK-74 underfolder
* SKS
* Beretta Cx4 Storm
* Marlin 1896

Good luck with the AK-74 underfolder, it would have to be an expensive custom job. Look for an AK-74 side folder. My choice is an AIMS-74 clone (it is fully functional folded).

Add to your list the Keltec Glock sub2k, it is 2/3 the weight of the Storm. Mine has been completely reliable I think because it uses high quality glock mags which as we know the mag generally makes the reliability factor of a gun.

For reasons stated above any HD weapon must have a light.

Ideally I would prefer a pencil barrel 12.5-14.5 AR, but it would require discipline to always keep the ear-pro with the rifle. And it is expensive to build a pencil barrel AR + you have the $200 tax stamp.

Another option, is the AMD-65, one of the lightest and lowest recoil AK-47's, tax stamp makes it very maneuverable. Reliable and inexpensive.

 

[MachIVshooter]

this person wants a gun, talked his parents into letting him have one, and was asking for advice. Instead he got a bunch of folks arguing over what home defense is and isn't with a few folks picking at proper grammar usage as well... Nice job

OP stated:

I've finally managed to convince my parents to knowingly let me have a home defense gun in the house.

Not "range/plinking/hunting/long range shooting gun that will also be used for home defense"; He specified the use as HD, so we're advising him on the best option. The two he initially had in mind are not, the reasons for which are detailed over 3 pages by dozens of members.

So get of your holier-than-thou pedestal.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Folks will chop the barrel and add a $1000 2 lb suppressor to an AR for "HD" before they will consider storing a pair of muffs with their HD weapon.?

Supressor > muffs. Any hearing protection impairs your hearing by definition, and takes precious time to employ.

The electronic ones largely mitigate the former issue, but there is still a problem: I sure don't wanna be fumbling to put on muffs while a violent invader is kicking down my door.

None of us want to lose our hearing, but most of us value our lives and the lives of our loved ones over our eardrums.

That said, I do keep a pair of muffs right next to my 11-87 police. If I have time to get them on, I will. That'll happen after we're hunkered down behind concealment, and after my wife has hers on and she can cover me.

 

[KCFirepower]

I use an AK and an 870, and a handgun(I alternate between a couple) for my home defense. That being said, I would prefer it to be an M4. It all depends on the mileage of your walls and what you are comfortable/trained in using.

Don't buy something, anything, just because it looks cool. Be practical when it comes to you and your loved ones lives.

BTW, I love my FAL. I'm also partial to not being sued or ostracized by my neighbors.

 

[hipoint]

edited... get what you want man... don't listen to us trolls. we're all up past our bedtime anyhow.

 

[Davek1977]

WSith so many options out there, I caznnot fathom any reason to choose a full-sized battle rifle, complete with bayonette, for home defense. It strikes me akin to hunting whitetails with a 458 winchester....sure, you CAN do ikt, but that certainly doesn't mean you SHOULD or that its the best (or even one of the best) choice(s).

 

[regal]

Supressor > muffs. Any hearing protection impairs your hearing by definition, and takes precious time to employ.

I don't know, 2 seconds to put on a pair of muffs vs adding 1-2 lbs and 8" to the end of a rifle Every swung a rifle around a hallway for fast target aquisition?

If you are fumbling putting them on and they are a hassle, that should be practiced and part of your training, it can be come second nature without a thought just like flipping the safety, chambering a round, etc.

As far as life vs death vs hearing lose, its not a choice we have to make except very rare situations.

Good electronic ear muffs should be high on the list when one choses to own a HD gun.

 

[mortablunt]

Thanks for bringing up the question of hearing loss. I already keep a pair of muffs with me so I can quiet study and sleep at college even while other people are partying and blasting music. It's interesting that I can still hear every little sound with them and yet they stop Megadeth fired at full blast in the next room from frying my hearing at 1 A.M.

To be honest, I expected a lot less trolling. I am seriously disappointed. For the most part, I never expect to need an HD gun, but it would be a lot better to have one anyone rather than to sit around and wait for something to happen before I begin to consider arming myself. I'm not expecting WW3 or a zombie apocalypse. When I am planning for is robbery/break-in/burgler/home invasion.

I've been to the gun show and I'm going back again today to make my purchase I've come up with another list with some notes. Also, I did not find a Cx4 or a PC-9, so those have been removed from contention.

* M1 Carbine- Admittedly, I was foolish for not including this at the first place. My one concern is ammunition supply. The stock and sights fit me well. The controls aren't bad either.
* Mossberg 500/w stock- This is a very strong contender. If I absolutely need to go plinking, I can just call up a friend with a more suitable weapon or I can use a #28 trap load.
* Hi Point Carbine in 45 ACP- I saw this gun. It looked ugly and tactical, but wow, I seriously love it! However, I don't really like dumping extra cash for a sighting system.
* Para AK in 5.45- This is close to perfect. The skeleton stock can be put away and when it's out, it brings the gun up exactly to my eye level for quick sighting. It handles tightly and quickly. I was taught to shoot on an AK, so it's all natural to me.
* 7.62 Saiga in 7.62- It's like an AK had a love child with a hunting rifle. This might be a better bet for not scaring the VPC folks.
* SKS- Admittedly, this one is a bit long and ungainly for clearing a house. It's cartridge might also pose some problems with overpenetration. What it's going going for it is economics and my general fondness for it. This is a gun that for me, just works.

If you have any final comments add them now, or forever hold your peace. If you're going to moan that I should get a handgun, or that I'm in some sort of fantasy land about HD, then please keep those to yourself.

 

[Ranger30-06]

I'm almost horrified to say this, but if you like the Hi-point, go for it. .45 is a good round, you can change the stock on the gun if its to bad, it comes with the best warranty known to humankind (even if your the second, third, or twentieth owner!) and it's overall a decent weapon for a very low price. Good luck!

 

[Mike1234567]

* Mossberg 500 w/ 20" barrel.
* Hi Point Carbine in 45ACP
* AK-74 underfolder
* SKS
* Beretta Cx4 Storm
* Marlin 1896

None of these do much of anything alike except load ammo and shoot it. That means the OP doesn't have any clue about what he wants to do, aside from just own it, because he can. None of them is particularly well suited to replace any other.

Actually, the OP originally wrote that he wants a .308 FAL or Arsenal AK. That's pretty specific. Others here, including myself, suggested other platforms/calibers as better HD options. The OP modified his list after reading our comments.

 

[Tirod]

And I also pointed out that none of those are the #1 choice in home defense, a large caliber auto pistol.

While he's under no obligation to detail the situation, expressing the "need" for a home defense gun hasn't been fully justified. Adding comments about what it's like to study in what sounds like a dorm situation doesn't lend credibility. I seriously doubt Mom and Dad will tolerate MegaDeath blasting from the apartment next door at 1AM.

The mall ninja posters are all jumping in supporting their role playing game of Dungeons and Home Defense. I don't see much consistency in the need - just exactly where is this weapon going to be stored and used, home, or in a crowded apartment complex of rowdy collegegoers? As pointed out, we've gone from wanting a foreign battle rifle in a serious caliber, to pistol carbines with insufficient long range power in the same size format - too big to handle well in a constrained infra urban environment.

If life is so dangerous in this situation, how? Living with M&D at home, or with MegaDeath next door? Where's the need? What's creating a life and death risk that immiment endangerment could suddenly break down a door and threaten someone wearing earmuffs while extremely loud rock music blares from the next room over?

Bluntly, I smelled BS from Post #1. Enabling the poster doesn't sort out the flaws in this scenario, and hasn't helped to sort out what he really needs - other than some serious training under professional guidance.

 

[ugaarguy]

Hornady has V-Max loaded ammo in 5.45x39, and SST in 7.62x39 (both ballistic tip variants). The shotgun or an intermediate caliber carbine (like 5.45x39, 5.56 NATO, or 7.62x39) with ballistic tips are safer than handgun rounds in terms of over penetration characteristics.

I was taught to shoot on an AK, so it's all natural to me.

Then an AK is the way to go. You're already familiar with it, so there's no need to learn something else while you're limited in both and budget for training. Get a couple boxes of the Hornady ballistic tip - one to run through to ensure reliability, and one to keep in a mag for HD - and stick a good light on that AK in whichever caliber you get.

 

[mortablunt]

Since you love keep on injecting your lovely helpfulness, Tirod, I'll give you the rundown. The gun is staying at home since I can't bring it to college. I will teach my parents to use whichever model I select. It's partially because my parents are aging and I cannot constantly be there with a hidden gun. I feel better knowing that they can protect themselves and the property. The dorm is fairly safe, but just to be sure, I've taken up martial arts again, have a pair of hard leather gloves, and an oversized flashlight with the long heavy handle. I've explained myself, so would you please kindly stop giving me all this flack?

 

[Mike1234567]

And I also pointed out that none of those are the #1 choice in home defense, a large caliber auto pistol.

While he's under no obligation to detail the situation, expressing the "need" for a home defense gun hasn't been fully justified. Adding comments about what it's like to study in what sounds like a dorm situation doesn't lend credibility. I seriously doubt Mom and Dad will tolerate MegaDeath blasting from the apartment next door at 1AM.

The mall ninja posters are all jumping in supporting their role playing game of Dungeons and Home Defense. I don't see much consistency in the need - just exactly where is this weapon going to be stored and used, home, or in a crowded apartment complex of rowdy collegegoers? As pointed out, we've gone from wanting a foreign battle rifle in a serious caliber, to pistol carbines with insufficient long range power in the same size format - too big to handle well in a constrained infra urban environment.

If life is so dangerous in this situation, how? Living with M&D at home, or with MegaDeath next door? Where's the need? What's creating a life and death risk that immiment endangerment could suddenly break down a door and threaten someone wearing earmuffs while extremely loud rock music blares from the next room over?

Bluntly, I smelled BS from Post #1. Enabling the poster doesn't sort out the flaws in this scenario, and hasn't helped to sort out what he really needs - other than some serious training under professional guidance.

There is no such thing as a "number one choice" for HD. There are too many variables. To suggest the OP is full of BS is rude and condescending. He came here for help. Most of us are trying to provide it as best we can. You can call everyone "mall ninjas" if you like but what's the point in that? To start fights? Sorry, but I'm not participating.

 

[ugaarguy]

And I also pointed out that none of those are the #1 choice in home defense, a large caliber auto pistol.

Just because it's the most common doesn't mean it's the best. It took decades for LE to get out of the entrenched supposition that pistol caliber carbines were safest for urban use.

While he's under no obligation to detail the situation, expressing the "need" for a home defense gun hasn't been fully justified. Adding comments about what it's like to study in what sounds like a dorm situation doesn't lend credibility. I seriously doubt Mom and Dad will tolerate MegaDeath blasting from the apartment next door at 1AM.

It's pretty clear that he's a college kid who can have one gun at home, but lives in the dorms most of the year.

The mall ninja posters are all jumping in supporting their role playing game of Dungeons and Home Defense. I don't see much consistency in the need - just exactly where is this weapon going to be stored and used, home, or in a crowded apartment complex of rowdy collegegoers? As pointed out, we've gone from wanting a foreign battle rifle in a serious caliber, to pistol carbines with insufficient long range power in the same size format - too big to handle well in a constrained infra urban environment.

Pistol caliber carbines are far smaller than an FAL. Many of us have recommended intermediate caliber carbines with proper ammo selection as the safest route. I've never had anything stolen from my residence, but I still lock my windows & doors. The odds of needing a home defense weapon aren't what matters - it's what's at stake if you do need one.

If life is so dangerous in this situation, how? Living with M&D at home, or with MegaDeath next door? Where's the need? What's creating a life and death risk that immiment endangerment could suddenly break down a door and threaten someone wearing earmuffs while extremely loud rock music blares from the next room over?

See above.

Bluntly, I smelled BS from Post #1. Enabling the poster doesn't sort out the flaws in this scenario, and hasn't helped to sort out what he really needs - other than some serious training under professional guidance.

Dang it Tirod, chill the F out. He's a college kid asking for advice. If you'd read his posts more carefully you'd see that he's been working with a retired Army Ranger. Yes, you're an extremely experienced professional, but you're not the only one with experience.

 

[Panzercat]

Sub 2000! Sub 2000! Sub 2000! <jumps up and down in tantrum>
Alright, I'm done

 

[nathan]

Draco would be the one to look for.

 

[mortablunt]

Quick question: Is there anything that uses the Kalashnikov system and manual of arms and fires a pistol cartridge?