VA State Trooper knew nothing about 1911s...

[Solidus-snake]

I have had my own run ins with gun-ignorant cops, but mine was about the cop not knowing what our states gun laws were and had to have me correct him!

I agree, its not entirely his fault that he didnt know about the safety and functions of the 1911, and he was telling you about his own version of "gun safety" to try and inform you, but he should have at least apologized and explained how that he didnt know about it instead of acting like Mr. Uber Cop thats never wrong.

 

[pancakeofdoom]

he probably thought he was doing his job.

and why do i believe that you may have been less than 100% courteous? could you call him ignorant a few more times? i don't think we got the point.

ignorant would have been hassling you, instead it seems like you went on your way pretty easily.

 

[CajunBass]

Ok. He didn't know anything about a 1911. He probably shouldn't have lectured you about how to carry it. He did. So what? Wouldn't be the first time somebody told me something that wasn't 100% right. I doubt it was the first time you've had it happen. I'll bet you have even done it a time or two yourself.

Just smile, say "thank you" and go on about your business.

 

[Solidus-snake]

"Just smile, say "thank you" and go on about your business."

pretty much right, unless you want to be tased and shown the right way to address the polizei. Sad that in todays America you gotta just nod your head and say "Yes sir, whatever you say sir, you are always right sir" to keep from being jailed and fined.

 

[dpeticca]

rellascout,

It is unfortunate you had to deal with the troopers ignorance. This has nothing to do with guns though, it has to do with the mentality of the officer of you encountered. The people on this board who are rationalizing the troopers poor behavior show they fit the same mentality of talking about what they don't understand.

I am not an LE, but I have friends who are. And I will tell my friends, what I will tell you here. Officers have a LOT of power. They know it, and sometimes they let it swell their heads. Just because this particular trooper decided to talk about something he knows nothing about doesn't support the generality that LE's are a little full of themselves. However, I find a great many to think themselves knowledgeable about things they quite clearly don't understand.

Just recently, a good family friend, a former Detective from Philadelphia for decades, proceeded to tell me that the way I pronounced "Das Boot" (WWII Submarine Movie) was not pronounced the way I had said it, but in fact was pronounced "Das Boot"...(you say tomayto I say tomahto)... I work for a German corporation (I will not name), and let me just say, the way I said it was entirely correct. He does this all the time, about trivial things. I've seen this kind of behavior in a few friends of mine who are in, or who now have left Law Enforcement.

My point is this; there's something about Law Enforcement that draws people to the power they have over civilians. And there's also something that's part of that personality profile, that makes them feel like they can just make up whatever nonsense they want to, simply because they think what they are saying is true, or right.

It's not totally exclusive to Law Enforcement. I volunteered on the local ambulance and fire squads while I was in high school and my early college years and there were similarities. The power over someone's life, the power over the accident scene, the voyeurism associated with wanting to see people in misery and pain.

The best thing to do I've learned, is to simply agree with these people and move on as quickly as possible. It's a difficult job. It's a dangerous job. It's a job where lack of knowledge can get you killed. Acting like you know something you don't could get you killed. Putting all those traits together implies a rather ominous outlook for this trooper. What you did was a real good deed rellascout.

 

[Oro]

and why do i believe that you may have been less than 100% courteous? could you call him ignorant a few more times? i don't think we got the point.

ignorant would have been hassling you, instead it seems like you went on your way pretty easily.

No, "ignorant" would have been talking and lecturing about something he didn't know anything about. Which is what, as rellascout reports, is exactly what he did. Do a dictionary search on terms before lecturing the public on what they mean...

The power over someone's life, the power over the accident scene, the voyeurism associated with wanting to see people in misery and pain.

Um, whoa. I went into volunteer first aid/emergency care because I liked the feeling of helping people, not seeing misery. It's also what I saw my colleagues in medical school and medicine exhibit. Not some schadenfreude of others' pain. That's a bit off base of what someone who wants to go into the service of being a LEO or medical professional should feel.

But perhaps that does motivate many in those professions, and thanks to rellascout for pointing out to us that there are "tin hats" out there who get off on the power, regardless of what their true task is.

 

[dpeticca]

They're called "Wackers"

But perhaps that does motivate many in those professions, and thanks to rellascout for pointing out to us that there are "tin hats" out there who get off on the power, regardless of what their true task is.

It's a shame it happens. In my industry (IT), we have the same thing, only, we're not dealing with life and death issues, so it doesn't really matter if a guy pretends to know something and then blows up a server.

When I was in the fireservice, we called these people "wackers". They were the kind of guys who had a million lights on their cars. They would go full lights and sirens to a scene after they've already been recalled. They'd have every piece of gear imaginable but didn't have the training to use it... and the sad thing was, most of the outfit I was a part of were compromised of these individuals.

The voyeurism is a weird element too, but it's something about sitting around and waiting for something bad to happen. These guys just can't wait to get a call about something unfortunate. I'd always tell them I didn't mind if I could hang out all night and not have to go to an emergency if possible. Once on the scene though, they were all too happy to bark out instructions to people who were scared out of their minds....

... and so what does this all have to do with this trooper... I don't know, just seems like a lot of the same personality traits... a lot of pretending to know about things they should already know if they were trained properly. That trooper in VA should've understood the basic concept of "cocked and locked" firearms, even if he didn't have any formal 1911 training. My sigs have a hammer and a "decocking" lever, so the idea about carrying the firearm in the manner in which the OP did shouldn't have been completely foreign to him...

 

[StrawHat]

So long story short why was this VA State police so stupid when it comes to guns. I cannot believe I was lectured by a 20 something who thought that a badge gave him the right to give me firearm advice. Do they not teach Troopers about guns beyond the ones that they carry? This trooper had no clue.

Actually we tried damn hard just to teach them about the ones they carried. Many Officers view the sidearm as a suoerfluos piece of equipment. Many departments validate this attitude by having minimal training and treating training as a pain.

I dealt with that attitude for years before resigning my commision and letting them handle it their way.

I always said that some cops shouldn't have a sharp pencil let alone a loaded sidearm.

 

[Dalerj]

Emotionalism is possibly the problem. The cop was probably scared silly of a civilian with a gun permit, a little intimated by dealing with some one that was his elder, and then to see the gun cocked and ready to go off ( in his mind ) almost put him over the edge. Many people respond when scared with a show of bravado and attempted superiority. This is normal and especially in a young man in a position of power. Him shaking his head as you left was perhaps his way of showing you that he wasn't scared or intimated by your license , age , or superior firearms knowledge. In his youth and ignorance , the head shaking would also help him save face. Perhaps some time and experience will help to diminish some of his fears and need to save face.
If you had told him that the cocked and locked firearm had scared you until your firearms instructor showed you all the safeties on the pistol it might have diffused the situation.
Remember that our society has turned firearms and safety into an emotional issue regardless of the facts.
A man convinced against his will is unconvinced still. I think this might apply in this case.
Good luck next time, perhaps you could help the young officer get over some of his fears by showing some vulnerability on your part.

 

[pbearperry]

This is why it is stupid to have to declare that you are carrying a gun lawfully for a minor Motor Vehicle infraction.It is also stupid to carry a firearm in states that require this and drive like you own the streets.Sounds juvenile to me,however that may be because I am old.I carry every day and never have these encounters because I obey the laws of the road.Try it,much less grief and you will arrive home in just a minute or two later.

 

[knifestuff]

I'm gonna take a different approach. He was trying to do you a good deed and correct whtat he thought was a safety issue. You shoulda just said "thank you for your concern" and left it at that.

 

[rbernie]

Do they not teach Troopers about guns beyond the ones that they carry

No. Their job is to be proficient with the weapon that they use - not to be a gun enthusiast.

He was trying to do you a good deed and correct whtat he thought was a safety issue. You shoulda just said "thank you for your concern" and left it at that.

Knifestuff wins the thread.

Rellascout, from my POV this is waaaay too much to-do about nothing. It was a non-incident, and yet you made it into an incident by putting that indignant 'but I'm a GUNNIE!' chip on your shoulder.

If he'd told you that your tires were a little thin on tread heading into the winter season, would you have reacted as viscerally? I suspect not.

 

[xXxplosive]

Why even take the time to educate him, that's not your job. Take your gun and the summons and leave. No harm done.......remember, anything you say can be used against you in a court of law.

 

[Gary A]

I've come to believe that the real message in "turning the other cheek" is knowing when something is not important and knowing when not to return one mistake with another. I agree with the "thank you for your concern" approach. One of the wisest men I have known used to say that when something happened, take responsibility, forgive everyone involved, and go on down the road. Low profile is always better than bells and cymbals. There's enough real confrontation in life without cluttering things up with needless ones.

 

[DasFriek]

I would have been more concerned as to why a LEO was disarming me.
Granted i would have handed it over without comment,but in the back of my head i wouldn't be happy.
Im under the impression they can only do that with probable cause or suspicious activity?

Him not knowing how to operate my 1911 wouldn't bother me,and ive gotten a lot worse lectures before for no legal reason.That would include cursing and screaming for legal carrying a knife in open view in a vehicle.In saying that there were 3 other officers there at that moment that were nice and professional.

 

[rellascout]

Rbernie your statement could not be further from the truth. You consider it a non-innocent but I do not. You do a wonderful job of moderating the forum but please do not tell me what to think or what happened. You were not there.

As far as the trooper is concerned I stated my opinion thoughtfully and politely. I was not rude to him in any manner. Your one way reading of the event shows a bias IMHO. I did not yell at him. I simply told him he was incorrect and demonstrated to him why. I did not display any anger or any malice towards him. I simply corrected his attempt to correct me. My actions were not only justified my statements were 100% correct and accurate. I state several times I am carrying a 1911 as designed. Honestly I believe this was the first time he had ever seen a 1911. My guess would be that before yesterday he had no idea that a gun could function in that manner and be safe..... YET he still felt the need to tell me otherwise.

Maybe he will look it up on the internet. Maybe when he got back to the barracks he told someone who actually knows about guns what happened and they corrected him too.

As for your tire dig... It would have bothered me too. It is not his job to dole out advice simply because he wears a badge. Why do Cops think just because they wear a badge they have the right to impose their $.02 on you about tires or guns.

 

[wditto]

just be glad he didn't shoot you when you pulled the weapon out -

 

[X-Rap]

I think you should write a letter to his commander and copy it to your state representatives if this really gets your goat that much. Heck even offer to come to the headquarters and give manual of arms training.
Authorities often feel the need to correct things even when they are not fully knowledgeable its just the way it is, you on the other hand like many of us feel slighted when our wisdom and knowledge is questioned plus we like to have the last word in an argument.
We are such flawed creatures aren't we??

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Do they not teach Troopers about guns beyond the ones that they carry?

Most departments, not just State Police, do not teach firearms beyond what they issue. They don't have the time or budget.

So..., the trooper sees what he's been taught is unsafe..., he could've kept his mouth shut and laughed at the guy driving away who will one day blow-up his hip as far as the trooper has been taught, but instead from his point of view tries to help you out by telling you about a possible injury to yourself. (Gee what a schmuck he was)

You don't see him as helpful, because he's a cop (and you obviously have a problem with a cop unless he's perfectly correct at all times), and therefore he must have an "attitude" and be too big for his britches; (instead) you make several assumptions.

First, that he's lecturing you. He didn't, as a "lecture" is one sided, and he allowed you to demonstrate your point to him. Sounds polite to me, even if you don't like his reply. (Do you enjoy being shown you are ignorant? Sounds like he was embarrassed). He allowed a perfect stranger to handle a firearm and manipulate the firing mechanism INSIDE his vehicle! He showed you respect by assuming you knew what you were doing. Had he "lectured you" he should've said something akin to "It don't matter how many safeties you got on that thing mister, carrying it cocked is unsafe", but he didn't.

Second, you assume that all 1911 CC people, place their weapon on safe, and that both safeties are in good working order. Sure that's how the gun was designed, and you and I would agree that changing that is stupid. BUT I have seen 1911's with improperly fitted safeties, both of them, that were not operable. I have also seen 1911's with the grip safety disabled. I also remember 30 years ago the Israeli's were teaching their folks who were carrying 1911A1's and Browning HP's to carry, but were told to carry condition 3, even though it was likely they would have to use their handguns against a terrorist or two. They thought it was unsafe for folks to carry cocked and locked in a combat area. That is still taught, even in this country today. Why are there so many pistols from so many parts of the world that have double actions and decocking levers? So apparently, the cocked, semi-automatic pistol is world wide acknowledged as unsafe.

What should anger you (imho) is the fact that the trooper wasn't properly trained on a wide variety of firearms, and because of that fact the trooper was taught the opinion, by the firearms instructors in VA, that any firearm carried cocked is unsafe. The fine from your ticket probably went anywhere but into LE training for that state, and that should anger you too. THAT's where the problem lies, not in the fact that a member of the Law Enforcement community saw what he'd been taught was unsafe, and did his job by voicing a warning. Aren't troopers, deputies, and officers supposed to tell folks when they think they see them doing something that is unsafe?

LD

 

[rellascout]

X-rap you got that right. We are flawed creatures.... LOL

 

[Kleanbore]

From rellascout in Post #1

... I attempted to educate the ignorant trooper. ...He knew nothing about carrying cocked and locked but felt the need to impart his ignorance on to me.

...and from Post #8

I was perfectly polite to the ignorant officer.

And #12...

My issue is that this ignorant trooper felt that his badge gave him the right to tell me about something he knew nothing about.

I read some time ago about a Texas Ranger who was pulled over by an officer who, noticing that the Ranger's 1911 was cocked and locked, told him it was dangerous. Do you think the Ranger later repeatedly characterized the officer, who may or may not have been familiar with the 1911, as "ignorant"?

I have an acquaintance who was an MP some decades ago. He was required to carry his weapon with an empty chamber; only dog handlers were permitted to carry cocked and locked. I don't think that's the best way, but would you describe the people who established the rule as "ignorant", or do you think they knew just a little something about the 1911 and judged differently about the best way to carry it?

Two days ago, Cristcorp posted in another thread on this forum the following:

I always carried mine with the hammer down on a live round. It is safer at this condition that cocked and locked. ...No one can argue; it is. All the mechanical issues in the world can happen to a gun. ... In condition 1, there are plenty of things that can happen to cause a problem. ...for the "Civilian" who will be carrying the weapon concealed, condition 2 is the better method of carrying the weapon.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6037397&postcount=44

I don't happen to agree with him, and neither did Col. Cooper, but this THR member has about three decades of experience with the 1911. I don't think you can correctly describe him as "ignorant."

Have you ever given anyone advice with which others disagree?

I state several times I am carrying a 1911 as designed.

You may be carrying it the best way, but you cannot substantiate the assertion that you were carrying the 1911 "as designed." The safety was added at the insistence of the cavalry to prevent accidents on a galloping horse while the weapon was in hand. The 1940 version of the Army manual says to carry the way you do if immediate use is anticipated and with an empty chamber otherwise, but that was written three decades after the gun was designed.

Did you know that?

 

[rellascout]

First, that he's lecturing you. He didn't, as a "lecture" is one sided, and he allowed you to demonstrate your point to him. Sounds polite to me, even if you don't like his reply. (Do you enjoy being shown you are ignorant? Sounds like he was embarrassed). He allowed a perfect stranger to handle a firearm and manipulate the firing mechanism INSIDE his vehicle! He showed you respect by assuming you knew what you were doing. Had he "lectured you" he should've said something akin to "It don't matter how many safeties you got on that thing mister, carrying it cocked is unsafe", but he didn't.

Gun was unloaded and I showed him it was clear before I handed it to him so unless he loaded it he knew he was in on danger from the demonstration. In the end even after my demonstration that the gun was in perfect working order and that it was in fact safe he basically told me I was still wrong. See that's what bothers me. He was shown to be wrong in his assumptions and still felt he was right.

As for your 2nd assumption it is irrelevant. We did not have a discussion about 1911s in general. I made and have not made any assumption about how others carry their 1911 or if it is in good working order. I think you fail to realize that this officer appeared to have never seen a 1911 in his life. He had no knowledge of SA guns with manual safeties. He had no idea how the safeties on a cocked and locked gun functioned. Sure the Israelis carry in condition 3 but that does not make Condition 1 unsafe. They did not choose this method because condition 1 is not safe. The Israelis acknowledge that the first shot will usually go off target because of muzzle whip as the piece is triggered. Their concept was developed to allow a universal manual of arms for a large group of people receiving limited training which had to be applicable to a broad array of handguns. Useful in their context but not in ours.

 

[rellascout]

Ignorant:

1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

I cannot think of a better word to discribe the officers in this instance. He was "ignorant" when it came to cocked and locked carry and 1911s.

 

[rbernie]

As for your tire dig... It would have bothered me too. It is not his job to dole out advice simply because he wears a badge. Why do Cops think just because they wear a badge they have the right to impose their $.02 on you about tires or guns.

Complaining about police conduct is not on topic for this forum. I was hoping that you'd take my hints and abandon that line of discussion, but since you cannot I will have to do it for you.