Vang Comp systems.
- Thread starter usmccpl
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MountainBear
Member
Hans Vang is a graduate of the Colorado School of Trades gunsmithing school. He is based in Arizona and does a lot of business with law enforcement. I believe Surefire's combat annual had a writeup on him in this years issue. If half of what they say is true, I'd send my 870 to him.
Do not know about the .410 question, but I know some of the Alaska State Troopers carry shotguns with his work done on them and seem to be pleased enough to keep using them. And isn't that the best praise of someone's work? Having them used by those whos lives depend on them...
see www.vangcomp.com
Do not know about the .410 question, but I know some of the Alaska State Troopers carry shotguns with his work done on them and seem to be pleased enough to keep using them. And isn't that the best praise of someone's work? Having them used by those whos lives depend on them...
see www.vangcomp.com
Inner Monkey
Member
I have a custom Remington 1100 that Hans built for me. It is the sweetest shooting “things that go bump in the night” 12GA I have ever shot. The 00 Buck-shot pattern is very, very tight.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
The "system" consists of backboring or overboring the full length of the barrel, removing a few thousandths of an inch of barrel wall thickness right down to what becomes the choke at the end of tha barrel where the barrel is left at full diameter. The full treatment includes porting as well.
There's nothing in this system that can't be duplicated if not improved upon as far as patterns are concerned, by extending the forcing cone a bit and installing choke tubes. The main difference is that some folks prefer to not have choke tubes in their shotgun barrels, and if you start out with a fixed choke barrel then something like this is one of the few options for tightening patterns (choke tubes can be permanently installed, or there's an option called 'jug choking' that involves reaming out a short section of barrel a couple of inches behind the muzzle by a few thousandths of an inch). External choke devices (Cutts Compensator, PolyChoke etc) were once popular options but are much less used now.
As to the porting and the effects of backboring on reducing recoil, some folks claim both those things contribute to a reduction in felt recoil. I tend to go along with Bro. Buck The Technical One on both those issues- if the Technoid says they don't really work, I believe him. YMMV of course.
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnicalTracts/ChokePort.html
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnicalTracts/ConesBores.html
Personally I like extended forcing cones and choke tubes for improving buckshot patterns. Other folks are just as satisfied with Uncle Hans' work and think the Vang system is the bee's knees. Cost for both is approximately the same.
Having choices is a great thing, ain't it?
So far as I know Hans limits his work to 12 and 20 ga. Whether he works on calibers (.410 is a caliber not a gauge) you'd have to ask him.
lpl/nc
There's nothing in this system that can't be duplicated if not improved upon as far as patterns are concerned, by extending the forcing cone a bit and installing choke tubes. The main difference is that some folks prefer to not have choke tubes in their shotgun barrels, and if you start out with a fixed choke barrel then something like this is one of the few options for tightening patterns (choke tubes can be permanently installed, or there's an option called 'jug choking' that involves reaming out a short section of barrel a couple of inches behind the muzzle by a few thousandths of an inch). External choke devices (Cutts Compensator, PolyChoke etc) were once popular options but are much less used now.
As to the porting and the effects of backboring on reducing recoil, some folks claim both those things contribute to a reduction in felt recoil. I tend to go along with Bro. Buck The Technical One on both those issues- if the Technoid says they don't really work, I believe him. YMMV of course.
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnicalTracts/ChokePort.html
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnicalTracts/ConesBores.html
Personally I like extended forcing cones and choke tubes for improving buckshot patterns. Other folks are just as satisfied with Uncle Hans' work and think the Vang system is the bee's knees. Cost for both is approximately the same.
Having choices is a great thing, ain't it?
So far as I know Hans limits his work to 12 and 20 ga. Whether he works on calibers (.410 is a caliber not a gauge) you'd have to ask him.
lpl/nc
BozemanMT
Member
i have a couple HD oriented remington 870's (someone breaking in here is going to be VERY sorry) and one has the Knoxx SpecOp's stock (where it moves) and shooting slugs out of that is a picnic, no big deal.
I have another original Scattergun (pre Wilson) with a VangComp barrel but a normal stock.
It recoils about as much as the one with the SpecOp's stock. I havn't patterned it, but it shoots mighty well on clays/steel.
It's pretty amazing, although i wonder how useful all that porting would be at night.
But at the very least, you'd get a cool factor.
I have another original Scattergun (pre Wilson) with a VangComp barrel but a normal stock.
It recoils about as much as the one with the SpecOp's stock. I havn't patterned it, but it shoots mighty well on clays/steel.
It's pretty amazing, although i wonder how useful all that porting would be at night.
But at the very least, you'd get a cool factor.
I'm sorry to be contrary, Mr. Lapin, but to believe your technodude without trying the VCS yourself is rather foolish coming from an educated man, is it not? I should think that curiosity would get the better of you.
Vang's work is not for everybody; it is intended to benefit those in the LE and military branches. A trap or clays shooter is not going to believe in the benefits of Vang's system.
Mountain Bear, don't forget Navy Seals, DEA, L.A. City Schools, Burbank P.D., Anchorage P.D. as well as countless other LE departments across the country.
By the way, the .410 is a 67 guage.
Vang's work is not for everybody; it is intended to benefit those in the LE and military branches. A trap or clays shooter is not going to believe in the benefits of Vang's system.
Mountain Bear, don't forget Navy Seals, DEA, L.A. City Schools, Burbank P.D., Anchorage P.D. as well as countless other LE departments across the country.
By the way, the .410 is a 67 guage.
I own a complete Vang 870. I later bought a second Vang 14" barrel.
I have been in Vang's shop several times, and met him and his dog. He is one of the nicest guys you could ever do business with.
His barrel work increases the distance that you can keep all your buckshot pellets on a human sized target by about 10 yards. There is no question about this. If that is something you find desireable I can recommend the man and his work.
He also gave me a free hat
I have no idea about the .410.
I have been in Vang's shop several times, and met him and his dog. He is one of the nicest guys you could ever do business with.
His barrel work increases the distance that you can keep all your buckshot pellets on a human sized target by about 10 yards. There is no question about this. If that is something you find desireable I can recommend the man and his work.
He also gave me a free hat
I have no idea about the .410.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
SRG,
No contrariness taken.
But I offer a gentle reminder- you don't have to own one to try one. I HAVE tried it. I had considered sending one particularly troublesome 18" RS 870P barrel off to Hans, until my hometown barrel shop (Colonial Arms, then in Selma, AL, now relocated to Bay Minette, AL) told me it was apparently a factory overbore with an ImpCyl choke- that is, a .739" bore and a .729" choke, with full thickness barrel walls. No need to send that one off, I finally found a load it would pattern to suit me.
I am generally satisfied with the pattern results I have gotten from forcing cone work and choke tube installation, along with years of lots of experimentation and trying different factory loads and patterning with different choke tubes to include Patternmasters etc. I strongly dislike porting on any gun I have ever fired with it, not counting the muzzle brake on my .50BMG. I am generally an insensitive lout, i can't tell the difference in recoil pre- and post- forcing cone work. I can't tell the difference in recoil when shooting that backbored barrel. I couldn't tell the difference in recoil shooting any of several ported shotguns I have fired in the past. But they are louder and i don't like the gas and flash they deliver into the line of sight, it's distracting to me. Hey, maybe I'm not such an insensitive lout after all 8^).
I agree that the VCS is a popular and ultimately useful modification, that it is a preferred option with some .gov and .mil agencies who have taxpayer money to spend, and that it works just as advertised. I agree that Hans is a heck of a nice guy and that his shop does good work. I wish him nothing but the best.
I've never shot formal trap or skeet or sporting clays in my life, and my real world email address for a long time now has ended in .mil, it still does even though I am now happily retired. And fortunately Hans is glad to do business with us useless civilians too. I may want him to do a barrel or three for me someday...
8^)
lpl/nc (but they won't be ported...)
No contrariness taken.
But I offer a gentle reminder- you don't have to own one to try one. I HAVE tried it. I had considered sending one particularly troublesome 18" RS 870P barrel off to Hans, until my hometown barrel shop (Colonial Arms, then in Selma, AL, now relocated to Bay Minette, AL) told me it was apparently a factory overbore with an ImpCyl choke- that is, a .739" bore and a .729" choke, with full thickness barrel walls. No need to send that one off, I finally found a load it would pattern to suit me.
I am generally satisfied with the pattern results I have gotten from forcing cone work and choke tube installation, along with years of lots of experimentation and trying different factory loads and patterning with different choke tubes to include Patternmasters etc. I strongly dislike porting on any gun I have ever fired with it, not counting the muzzle brake on my .50BMG. I am generally an insensitive lout, i can't tell the difference in recoil pre- and post- forcing cone work. I can't tell the difference in recoil when shooting that backbored barrel. I couldn't tell the difference in recoil shooting any of several ported shotguns I have fired in the past. But they are louder and i don't like the gas and flash they deliver into the line of sight, it's distracting to me. Hey, maybe I'm not such an insensitive lout after all 8^).
I agree that the VCS is a popular and ultimately useful modification, that it is a preferred option with some .gov and .mil agencies who have taxpayer money to spend, and that it works just as advertised. I agree that Hans is a heck of a nice guy and that his shop does good work. I wish him nothing but the best.
I've never shot formal trap or skeet or sporting clays in my life, and my real world email address for a long time now has ended in .mil, it still does even though I am now happily retired. And fortunately Hans is glad to do business with us useless civilians too. I may want him to do a barrel or three for me someday...
8^)
lpl/nc (but they won't be ported...)
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Hans does good work. But all those mods fall into the category of things to do when 99% isn't good enough.
For now, BA/UU/R......
For now, BA/UU/R......
While I have zero intentions of spending any of my gun-cash on anything but shells for the near future, I do have a related question due to curiosity
Would a cylinder bore (that is the same thing as no choke at all right?) shotgun benefit from Vang's treatment?
Would a cylinder bore (that is the same thing as no choke at all right?) shotgun benefit from Vang's treatment?
Please allow me to make a few more comments on this subject.
Lee mentions that ported guns are louder. I took my Vang 14" barrel out to zero the sights with slugs. I was firing it on our local club range off a bench that had a roof over it. Every time I fired it, it was almost like a stun grenade went off. Everybody on the line stopped doing what they were dong each time it went off. After about a dozen or so rounds I couldn't take any more and put it away. This wasn't because of the recoil, it was because of the stunning blast every time I fired it.
" But all those mods fall into the category of things to do when 99% isn't good enough."
This is the whole issue right here in a nutshell.
First of all, let me explain where I am coming from. I have taken a couple formal shotgun classes. These classes make you think a little bit about some stuff that might not have ever entered your mind before. When they have you pattern your gun with buckshot, the idea is to find out how far away you can safely keep ALL your buckshot pellets on the target.
Let me repeat that: the max range of buckshot in your gun isn't how far away you can kill a human. It isn't how far away you can get lead into a human. It IS how far away you can keep your entire pattern on the target. You don't have stray projectiles flying down range beyond your target and endangering innocent bystanders. You don't care about just getting some lead in the target: you want the most effective senario which is all your pellets on the target.
Once you figure out what that range is, you switch to slug for anything past that range.
FWIW, that range varies with the gun and load you are shooting. You can increase or decrease that range simply by switching the brand of shells you are shooting. According to the instructors I had, there isn't a certain brand of shell that is better than others across the board. It is just sort of voodoo. For some reason your gun will like one brand of buckshot in favor of the others. You will never know what that brand is unless you try different loads in your gun.
The money you spend on Han's work is very simply to give you about 10 yards greater effective range (all pellets on the target). It makes the gun shoot a tighter pattern longer.
So, is this worthwhile ?
Maybe.
If your primary use of a defensive type shotgun is home defense then you don't need any work done on your shotgun. Unless you live in a football stadium, a COM shot will keep all the pellets of buckshot on the target.
But what if you have to engage a target at greater distance ? Out around that max range of buckshot ? Well, you can spend the money to increase your buckshot range a little bit, or when in doubt, select slug.
Are there any disadvantages to all this ?
Maybe.
Like any gun that shoots a tighter pattern, you have to aim more carefully to hit the target because the size of the pattern is smaller. This isn't a big issue. If you spend any time running shooting senarios with your shotgun, you will realize that it is absolutely possible to miss with a shotgun. So, once you get over the idea that a shotgun doesn't need to be aimed to begin with, this shouldn't be an issue.
Please allow me to express my own preference.
I am not a good student of the shotgun. I have taken a couple classes, but very seldom practice or shoot a shotgun otherwise. In one of these so-called SHTF senarios I probably wouldn't grab a shotgun. I am much more comfortable and skilled with a carbine or handgun. So, I am basing my preference on nine days of formal training and not much else. We did fire a couple thousand shells during those nine days in a wide variety of senarios, so I am basing this on something. During these two classes I used two different guns. One was a totally tricked out Vang 870. It had the barrel work done, the giant safety, the extended magazine tube, trigger job, ghost ring night sights, a Surefire light, and a youth length Hogue stock. The other gun was a factory Remington Express 870 with 20" rifle sighted barrel. It had a Surefire light and a youth length Hogue stock. Very plain gun that was purchased at Wal-Mart originally. The barrel was purchased off of an on-line aution site. It had a standard safety, standard magazine tube, no trick anything. I much prefered the plain shotgun to the "tricked out" shotgun. If I was starting all over again, I would go down to our local sporting goods store called Big 5 sporting goods and buying the 870 Express they advertise in the Sunday paper and be perfectly happy.
Lee mentions that ported guns are louder. I took my Vang 14" barrel out to zero the sights with slugs. I was firing it on our local club range off a bench that had a roof over it. Every time I fired it, it was almost like a stun grenade went off. Everybody on the line stopped doing what they were dong each time it went off. After about a dozen or so rounds I couldn't take any more and put it away. This wasn't because of the recoil, it was because of the stunning blast every time I fired it.
" But all those mods fall into the category of things to do when 99% isn't good enough."
This is the whole issue right here in a nutshell.
First of all, let me explain where I am coming from. I have taken a couple formal shotgun classes. These classes make you think a little bit about some stuff that might not have ever entered your mind before. When they have you pattern your gun with buckshot, the idea is to find out how far away you can safely keep ALL your buckshot pellets on the target.
Let me repeat that: the max range of buckshot in your gun isn't how far away you can kill a human. It isn't how far away you can get lead into a human. It IS how far away you can keep your entire pattern on the target. You don't have stray projectiles flying down range beyond your target and endangering innocent bystanders. You don't care about just getting some lead in the target: you want the most effective senario which is all your pellets on the target.
Once you figure out what that range is, you switch to slug for anything past that range.
FWIW, that range varies with the gun and load you are shooting. You can increase or decrease that range simply by switching the brand of shells you are shooting. According to the instructors I had, there isn't a certain brand of shell that is better than others across the board. It is just sort of voodoo. For some reason your gun will like one brand of buckshot in favor of the others. You will never know what that brand is unless you try different loads in your gun.
The money you spend on Han's work is very simply to give you about 10 yards greater effective range (all pellets on the target). It makes the gun shoot a tighter pattern longer.
So, is this worthwhile ?
Maybe.
If your primary use of a defensive type shotgun is home defense then you don't need any work done on your shotgun. Unless you live in a football stadium, a COM shot will keep all the pellets of buckshot on the target.
But what if you have to engage a target at greater distance ? Out around that max range of buckshot ? Well, you can spend the money to increase your buckshot range a little bit, or when in doubt, select slug.
Are there any disadvantages to all this ?
Maybe.
Like any gun that shoots a tighter pattern, you have to aim more carefully to hit the target because the size of the pattern is smaller. This isn't a big issue. If you spend any time running shooting senarios with your shotgun, you will realize that it is absolutely possible to miss with a shotgun. So, once you get over the idea that a shotgun doesn't need to be aimed to begin with, this shouldn't be an issue.
Please allow me to express my own preference.
I am not a good student of the shotgun. I have taken a couple classes, but very seldom practice or shoot a shotgun otherwise. In one of these so-called SHTF senarios I probably wouldn't grab a shotgun. I am much more comfortable and skilled with a carbine or handgun. So, I am basing my preference on nine days of formal training and not much else. We did fire a couple thousand shells during those nine days in a wide variety of senarios, so I am basing this on something. During these two classes I used two different guns. One was a totally tricked out Vang 870. It had the barrel work done, the giant safety, the extended magazine tube, trigger job, ghost ring night sights, a Surefire light, and a youth length Hogue stock. The other gun was a factory Remington Express 870 with 20" rifle sighted barrel. It had a Surefire light and a youth length Hogue stock. Very plain gun that was purchased at Wal-Mart originally. The barrel was purchased off of an on-line aution site. It had a standard safety, standard magazine tube, no trick anything. I much prefered the plain shotgun to the "tricked out" shotgun. If I was starting all over again, I would go down to our local sporting goods store called Big 5 sporting goods and buying the 870 Express they advertise in the Sunday paper and be perfectly happy.
sm
member
I have fired a shotgun a time or two...
.410 work? I would see a qualified shotgun smith and even better one that knows how to shoot, read a student's shooting by watching them shoot, and fit the gun to HER. Gun Fit encompasses a LOT of things.
Vang: Nice guy and I have fired his guns. Just not MY thing. I have bought his oversized safety for a 870, and turned it down to replicate a factory safety to replace the idiotic J Hook Safety. I do not do big safeties.
Lee Lapin and I share many of the same experiences. Most folks need a gun that fits THEM, forcing cone work, and the Choke ...umm depending on bore diameter usually IC, SKII or Mod will do what a Vang does for less Money.
Fact: I have taken a Win 1300 and screwed in a $8 Winchoke [Modified] and have greatly increased the effective range of buckshot. 444 excellent definition of "effective range" NOT "how far will this sucker toss 'em out".
Fact: I had a ugly 870 plain barrel, fixed choke "marked"* Mod and it tossed better buckshot patterns, at better effective range, grouped slugs, patterned Steel shot and anything else I shot thru it.
I paid $85 for this poor thing, and gunsmith "just barely" tweaked the forcing cone on that 2 3/4" chamber. He did not charge me - because I had done something for him. Just how we did business.
I have not attended a "formal" or "known" gun school, but I did have Mentors that had BTDT. I really did get caught up in some "lessons" and one time, the drill was simply "survive". My 1911 was loaded for me, I had two rds then dummy ctgs. My plain vanilla 870 [these guys did NOT believe in anything but bone stock guns for serious serious needs] was loaded with 2 live shells and then dummies.
"NO!!!"
To late, I was to "into it" , I attacked the steel plate with the muzzle of that shotgun and was going to town, using the buttstock.
Had to have muzzle cut back and chokes installed, had to have a used stock put on that gun. I "survived" - shotgun is only a tool, not THE only tool.
Fellas felt kind of bad, I was in adrenalin dump and did not care one whit about the shotgun. Survival means more to me than "just the shotgun".
When these guys said " toss the shotgun to transition" , I tossed the damn shotgun down and transitioned. When they said " okay, BG has the drop, he wants you to toss the shotgun over that-a-way - do it, now get your gun out and fire first shot in less than 1.2 seconds or less".
I did it. IF, IF the BG were to follow that shotgun getting tossed , I own him. I can either draw and shoot, or, another lesson, use his gun to kill him.
See, I like simple, I want guns to FIT and to be RELIABLE. I know it is the user of any tool and NOT the tool itself.
Oh I like wood and blue, and I appreciate nice guns. I lean toward wood for less percieved recoil due to density of wood, wood allows tweaking of fit and so on...
Nothing wrong with synthetic stocks, or accessories, IF the assessories are just that - assessories for a task, and not bragging rights and armchair Q'Backing.
I want, a plain vanilla bone stock gun, I am more versatile and can do anything I want from clays, to hunting to more serious. And...the Jury heaven forbid it comes to one, is going to see a plain vanilla shotgun.
Mentors and being serious. True.
Beautiful Citori O/U , we were out shooting clays with a portable trap, just having fun and all that...
Rabid Dogs come to check out the smells of BB Grill.
Slugs got tossed in the Citori and my job was to grab the little boy and get him in the truck cab...
[We ALWAYS kept slugs on belt handy "one never knows..." I still do and teach this to students while out shooting]
Two shots, two dogs down, Teeth Bite down hard on that Citori wood stock, and the 1911 finished of that dog and another one.
I mean this happened fast!
I was covering the kid and truck and being backup. Other folks were too far behind us, some came running up - while others got kids and others to a safer place inside.
Mentor came to check on the kid, who was about 3 and scared, okay, but scared. Mentor went to reassure the kid. Others checked on the rabid dogs, and all were down.
Mentor - not a scratch on him. Not his first Rodeo...
Citori on the ground, teeth marks, reciever and barrel scratched all to hell from everything...
Little boy just heaved and cried his eyes out seeing that gun, got over the dogs and shooting, just really hurt and upset about that gun getting messed up.
"Browning can refinish the gun, cannot replace a human being". - Mentor
Mentor and little boy had a "man to man" talk, I was within earshot and was the wife...finally a hug was exhanged and head nodded understanding, eyes dried and few more sniffles...time to get back to BBQ and the fun day.
"Okay, you promise to fix the gun" - boy
"Yes sir - I promise" - Mentor
Anniversary gift and not shot a lot, that Citori got sent back to Browning and refinished. His wife not really upset, she too knew the REAL value of humans versus tools.
Mentor has been passed for some time now, the little boy now a man has that Citori. He would not take a Million Dollars for it. New wood, refinished metal and blued and the original wood was sent back...it is put up for memories and to remind what shotguns roles really are. All it takes it to view that original wood with bite marks and claw marks...
Always the shooter - not the shooting iron.
.410 work? I would see a qualified shotgun smith and even better one that knows how to shoot, read a student's shooting by watching them shoot, and fit the gun to HER. Gun Fit encompasses a LOT of things.
Vang: Nice guy and I have fired his guns. Just not MY thing. I have bought his oversized safety for a 870, and turned it down to replicate a factory safety to replace the idiotic J Hook Safety. I do not do big safeties.
Lee Lapin and I share many of the same experiences. Most folks need a gun that fits THEM, forcing cone work, and the Choke ...umm depending on bore diameter usually IC, SKII or Mod will do what a Vang does for less Money.
Fact: I have taken a Win 1300 and screwed in a $8 Winchoke [Modified] and have greatly increased the effective range of buckshot. 444 excellent definition of "effective range" NOT "how far will this sucker toss 'em out".
Fact: I had a ugly 870 plain barrel, fixed choke "marked"* Mod and it tossed better buckshot patterns, at better effective range, grouped slugs, patterned Steel shot and anything else I shot thru it.
I paid $85 for this poor thing, and gunsmith "just barely" tweaked the forcing cone on that 2 3/4" chamber. He did not charge me - because I had done something for him. Just how we did business.
I have not attended a "formal" or "known" gun school, but I did have Mentors that had BTDT. I really did get caught up in some "lessons" and one time, the drill was simply "survive". My 1911 was loaded for me, I had two rds then dummy ctgs. My plain vanilla 870 [these guys did NOT believe in anything but bone stock guns for serious serious needs] was loaded with 2 live shells and then dummies.
"NO!!!"
To late, I was to "into it" , I attacked the steel plate with the muzzle of that shotgun and was going to town, using the buttstock.
Had to have muzzle cut back and chokes installed, had to have a used stock put on that gun. I "survived" - shotgun is only a tool, not THE only tool.
Fellas felt kind of bad, I was in adrenalin dump and did not care one whit about the shotgun. Survival means more to me than "just the shotgun".
When these guys said " toss the shotgun to transition" , I tossed the damn shotgun down and transitioned. When they said " okay, BG has the drop, he wants you to toss the shotgun over that-a-way - do it, now get your gun out and fire first shot in less than 1.2 seconds or less".
I did it. IF, IF the BG were to follow that shotgun getting tossed , I own him. I can either draw and shoot, or, another lesson, use his gun to kill him.
See, I like simple, I want guns to FIT and to be RELIABLE. I know it is the user of any tool and NOT the tool itself.
Oh I like wood and blue, and I appreciate nice guns. I lean toward wood for less percieved recoil due to density of wood, wood allows tweaking of fit and so on...
Nothing wrong with synthetic stocks, or accessories, IF the assessories are just that - assessories for a task, and not bragging rights and armchair Q'Backing.
I want, a plain vanilla bone stock gun, I am more versatile and can do anything I want from clays, to hunting to more serious. And...the Jury heaven forbid it comes to one, is going to see a plain vanilla shotgun.
Mentors and being serious. True.
Beautiful Citori O/U , we were out shooting clays with a portable trap, just having fun and all that...
Rabid Dogs come to check out the smells of BB Grill.
Slugs got tossed in the Citori and my job was to grab the little boy and get him in the truck cab...
[We ALWAYS kept slugs on belt handy "one never knows..." I still do and teach this to students while out shooting]
Two shots, two dogs down, Teeth Bite down hard on that Citori wood stock, and the 1911 finished of that dog and another one.
I mean this happened fast!
I was covering the kid and truck and being backup. Other folks were too far behind us, some came running up - while others got kids and others to a safer place inside.
Mentor came to check on the kid, who was about 3 and scared, okay, but scared. Mentor went to reassure the kid. Others checked on the rabid dogs, and all were down.
Mentor - not a scratch on him. Not his first Rodeo...
Citori on the ground, teeth marks, reciever and barrel scratched all to hell from everything...
Little boy just heaved and cried his eyes out seeing that gun, got over the dogs and shooting, just really hurt and upset about that gun getting messed up.
"Browning can refinish the gun, cannot replace a human being". - Mentor
Mentor and little boy had a "man to man" talk, I was within earshot and was the wife...finally a hug was exhanged and head nodded understanding, eyes dried and few more sniffles...time to get back to BBQ and the fun day.
"Okay, you promise to fix the gun" - boy
"Yes sir - I promise" - Mentor
Anniversary gift and not shot a lot, that Citori got sent back to Browning and refinished. His wife not really upset, she too knew the REAL value of humans versus tools.
Mentor has been passed for some time now, the little boy now a man has that Citori. He would not take a Million Dollars for it. New wood, refinished metal and blued and the original wood was sent back...it is put up for memories and to remind what shotguns roles really are. All it takes it to view that original wood with bite marks and claw marks...
Always the shooter - not the shooting iron.
I ask about the 410 work cuz my wifes shotty is a import coach gun. For a shot gun its about all she can handle. I tried her with a Beretta 391 in 12, a mossberg 500a in 12, a 590 in 12, and New england arms youth in 20. All of them one shot is all she would try claimed something bout dislocated shoulder got her to try the 410 and she fell in love. Just want it to have a tighter group cuz it sits in the corner loaded with 3 inch 000. At 10 feet all 5 pellets are on a man sized target,at 15 feet maybe 3 are but normally 2 and at 25 feet 1 will hit right where she wants it to. Not good for taking somebody out of the hallway when im at work.And thanks a bunch for the input so far guys.
one shot one kill
one shot one kill
TrapperReady
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usmccpl - If you don't mind me asking, is your wife very petite? Mine is 5'3" and about 110#. She comfortably shoots a 12ga O/U... but her gun fits her very well. When she first got it, the fit was bad enough that she shot a round of skeet and literally thought she'd broken her collar-bone.
We had her fit evaluated by some professionals (the good folks at Kolar Arms) and they made some modifications, primarily cutting the stock to an appropriate (and very short) length of pull and installing a premium (Kick-Eez) recoil pad.
Similarly, we've got a Winchester 1300 Defender for use as an HD gun. When we first used it bone-stock, it didn't fit and shooting slugs caused her significant discomfort. I cut the stock down to match the LOP on her O/U and installed a Limbsaver pad. She can now shoot it without a problem.
Also, there are lots of choices out there for ammo. Even though I'm sturdy and have a gun which fits almost perfectly, I won't shoot target loads over 1 oz. With some careful shopping, you can find 7/8oz 12 gauge loads which break targets well and have very little felt recoil.
We had her fit evaluated by some professionals (the good folks at Kolar Arms) and they made some modifications, primarily cutting the stock to an appropriate (and very short) length of pull and installing a premium (Kick-Eez) recoil pad.
Similarly, we've got a Winchester 1300 Defender for use as an HD gun. When we first used it bone-stock, it didn't fit and shooting slugs caused her significant discomfort. I cut the stock down to match the LOP on her O/U and installed a Limbsaver pad. She can now shoot it without a problem.
Also, there are lots of choices out there for ammo. Even though I'm sturdy and have a gun which fits almost perfectly, I won't shoot target loads over 1 oz. With some careful shopping, you can find 7/8oz 12 gauge loads which break targets well and have very little felt recoil.
pat86323
Member
Ive inspected a few of his shotguns....and they are sweet. Havent had the money to pick one up and play with it but they look really nice. His shop is literally a block from my house.
My wife stands a hole 4'5" and Wouldnt tip 100 lbs on the scale if you soaked her in mud for a week and it all stuck.She cant even shoot a stock 10/22 right. If i got around to getting something custom made for her her could handle it I think. Right now the only thing she owns is a second hand Savage 30/06 that the last owner cut almost a foot off ofand added a lot of rubber in place of about 2 inches of the wood and she has a Past recoil protecter that she has to use with it too.
one shot one kill
one shot one kill
sm
member
usmccpl,
Your wife has a right to protect herself and be comfortable doing so.
I have ( as have others here) assisted smaller folks. Makes no difference age, gender or marital status - rights are rights.
May I suggest, and forgive me for not catching her experiences.
1. I would get a Red Ryder BB Gun. It is small and will allow her practice so many correct basic fundamentals. I use Red Ryder BB Guns to teach shotgunning- makes not difference on age, gender or size.
Once the correct basics are learned and practiced, these continue to be instilled, I have students shoot ping pong balls. Students start doing 10 - 25 (depends on person) daily repetitions of proper mounting gun to face.
Seriously, getting all these basics down pat, and repeated, assists greatly on less perceived recoil and recoil mgmt.
2.
Youth / kids sized .410 single shot. Great to have around anyway and this is a great teaching tool AND defensive tool. Yes, I have persons due to whatever reasons [health, physcial limits - etc] load their rs with Slugs
Yes they get a lot of practice with light target loads, shooting golf balls...understanding and respecting physical limits...these same folks shoot, stationary clay targets, then tennis balls with the slugs...
All them BBs hitting ping pong balls pays off.
3.
.410 double barrel youth sized shotguns works for a LOT of smaller folks, I do not care if 10 years old or 98 years old, that .410 slug is akin to a .41 caliber .
Just these double barrels do often need to be "smoothed" so opening and closing easier, automatic safeties need to be disconnected ( if applicable) and stocks tweaked to fit.
I am sure others that have worked with smaller framed folks can chime in too.
Just the receivers on these break action guns are short, making total gun shorter and more balance between the hands and closer to body for control.
Problem with some guns, is the stock may get shorter, still "all that weight" with all that other stuff out there" ,[ receiver, forearm, gas system, barrel] messes with recoil curve, the abilty to swing and follow thru...a lot of "unbalance" - "out there".
HTH
Your wife has a right to protect herself and be comfortable doing so.
I have ( as have others here) assisted smaller folks. Makes no difference age, gender or marital status - rights are rights.
May I suggest, and forgive me for not catching her experiences.
1. I would get a Red Ryder BB Gun. It is small and will allow her practice so many correct basic fundamentals. I use Red Ryder BB Guns to teach shotgunning- makes not difference on age, gender or size.
Once the correct basics are learned and practiced, these continue to be instilled, I have students shoot ping pong balls. Students start doing 10 - 25 (depends on person) daily repetitions of proper mounting gun to face.
Seriously, getting all these basics down pat, and repeated, assists greatly on less perceived recoil and recoil mgmt.
2.
Youth / kids sized .410 single shot. Great to have around anyway and this is a great teaching tool AND defensive tool. Yes, I have persons due to whatever reasons [health, physcial limits - etc] load their rs with Slugs
Yes they get a lot of practice with light target loads, shooting golf balls...understanding and respecting physical limits...these same folks shoot, stationary clay targets, then tennis balls with the slugs...
All them BBs hitting ping pong balls pays off.
3.
.410 double barrel youth sized shotguns works for a LOT of smaller folks, I do not care if 10 years old or 98 years old, that .410 slug is akin to a .41 caliber .
Just these double barrels do often need to be "smoothed" so opening and closing easier, automatic safeties need to be disconnected ( if applicable) and stocks tweaked to fit.
I am sure others that have worked with smaller framed folks can chime in too.
Just the receivers on these break action guns are short, making total gun shorter and more balance between the hands and closer to body for control.
Problem with some guns, is the stock may get shorter, still "all that weight" with all that other stuff out there" ,[ receiver, forearm, gas system, barrel] messes with recoil curve, the abilty to swing and follow thru...a lot of "unbalance" - "out there".
HTH
sm My wife already shoots and with her custom Savage anything bigger than a tennis ball aint safe out to 200 yards. But the rifle against two legged critters at 10 feet when they got backup and she dont wont fly so I wanted something else for her and the 410 works,I just wanted to find a way to make it shoot better.
one shot one kill
one shot one kill
Lawyerman
Member
I own a VCS shotgun. It's great, it does what it is advertised to do and as most have pointed out that is add 10 yards or more to the guns range. However, I am just as happy with any of my other "stock" 870's. The problem I have with most tactical shotgun guys these days is they want to make them into rifles. They want ghost ring and rifle sights, they want to choke the gun down so it throws rifle like patterns......If you want a RIFLE, grab a RIFLE and leave the hard recoiling and low capacity shotgun in the closet!
Many people see the shotgun as the "do all" gun. I used to think that way. Now, to me, it a very specialized tool and I think the carbine is a better choice for most of what I used to want the shotgun for. In short, I don't see the need for the VCS mods anymore.
Many people see the shotgun as the "do all" gun. I used to think that way. Now, to me, it a very specialized tool and I think the carbine is a better choice for most of what I used to want the shotgun for. In short, I don't see the need for the VCS mods anymore.
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