Varget vs. H4350?

[Sniper66]

I have a Savage 110 Desert Tactical 6.5CM and have shot factory ammo and 4 different bullets, all loaded with Varget. One loaded with Hornady 140gr ELD-Match yielded 5-shot group that measured 1.25" at 100yds; respectable but hardly praiseworthy. Everything else I've shot measures around 2".
I'll adjust the trigger (AccuTrigger) and clean it well before any additional testing. Some say it may need more rounds thru it before it will shoot it's best. I've only shot about 100-125 rounds.
A friend and fellow shooter/reloader thinks I'll do better with H4350. What do you guys think?

 

[Skeptic13]

Honestly you won't know until you try loads in your gun. I am a huge Varget fan but you may not be able to get good accuracy with Varget and the bullets your shooting in your gun. If you have H4350 do a load workup and see how they shoot. I know Varget is very difficult to find right now. Not sure about H4350. I found a pound of Varget at my LGS last week and it was the first one I'd seen in two years. Hodgdon lists 15 different powders for 6.5 Creedmoor so I am confident that you can find one that works well for you.

 

[FLIGHT762]

H-4350 will give higher velocities and is better for 140 gr. bullets. Varget will work reasonably well for the 120- bullet weights, but H-4350 is an all round better powder for the 6.5 CM in the 120-143+ bullet weights..

 

[dh1633pm]

H4350 seems to be the “go to” for the 6.5 cm. Never tried either since both were not available when I needed it. I went with AA2700 because I had it, and couldn’t be happier. My Savage LRP shot my Barnes 140’s well from the start. Sometimes you have to go with what you have.

 

[Boomholzer]

You have factory ammo with a known "recipe"? What is meant by "factory ammo" and at what velocities? There are a ton of other variables in the cartridge build itself so I am making some assumptions to make words;
In your case, the first thing I would do is change the bullet. If your newer at this, you picked a pill that can be, (well is) harder to develop a happy load with. Start with a tangent ogive and something less aggressive on the BC. IMO, unless this ELD is imperative to your goals. While I don't think Varget is the best option here; process, neck tension and seating depth can also apply along with powder charge.

My personal observations & generalizations below which may or may not apply:
I think its a decent enough assumption that some similar observations can be drawn between the .260/6.5-08 and the 6.5CM. I can get Varget to shoot tight at velocities I am not happy with while still pushing into pressure signs. This is with long, heavy for bore 6.5 pills like the 140s. H4350 is my goto. If you want to go fast 'n tight and you accept some temp sensitivity, I would use RL17....especially over Varget. Varget is generally more variable in accuracy vs charge while working it up. RL17 has always (usually) found me a very sweet spot near max and I have also been burnt using these in hot climate travels. This is all also considering more factory throats/jump/freebore and a few different rifles.

In my local, Varget and H4350 were some of the first powders to resurface and unfortunately for me the ones I had on hand.

 

[Walkalong]

A friend and fellow shooter/reloader thinks I'll do better with H4350. What do you guys think?

You can beat it speed wise with 4350, which seems to be the gold standard for 6.5 Creed.

 

[Howa 9700]

As luck would have it, walked into a reloading shop today and left with a pound of Varget AND H4350. Two of nearly 20 or so powders they had on hand. No primers however.

 

[FROGO207]

Not loading for the 6.5 but in others the either of the 4350's do well for my ammo loads. Varget is supposed to be better on the temp stability range front but seems to give up some speed so after playing with 1 LB Inever got any more. YMMV

 

[Ru4real]

@Sniper66 I've been in your position a few times. Sounds like you have an MOA + gun.

To make it a sub MOA gun, you will have to re-barrel it.

Sub MOA guns shoot occasional sub MOA groups regardless of bullet and powder combinations. Finding the right combinations can make an occasional sub MOA gun ALWAYS shoot sub MOA.

One particular M70 of mine I played around with for 10 years. Bullets. Powder. Seating length. Sorting brass. Sometimes I'd shoot a 1 MOA group, but most were bigger. I had exactly one load that would shoot MOA consistently.

Once I had $500 saved, I had Krieger put a Krieger barrel on it. The very fist group out of it was 1/2 MOA. Since then, all my groups have been similar and sub MOA. Powder and bullet selection doesn't seem to matter, it shoots everything well.

I can tell you that in 10 years I spent more than $500 in powder and bullets and case prep than what the barrel cost.

Savage is great to re-barrel yourself. For example, ER Shaw sells kits for about $400 that includes barrel, wrench, go gauge, no go gauge. My one experience using ER Shaw resulted in a sub MOA gun.

 

[AJC1]

@Sniper66 I've been in your position a few times. Sounds like you have an MOA + gun.

To make it a sub MOA gun, you will have to re-barrel it.

Sub MOA guns shoot occasional sub MOA groups regardless of bullet and powder combinations. Finding the right combinations can make an occasional sub MOA gun ALWAYS shoot sub MOA.

One particular M70 of mine I played around with for 10 years. Bullets. Powder. Seating length. Sorting brass. Sometimes I'd shoot a 1 MOA group, but most were bigger. I had exactly one load that would shoot MOA consistently.

Once I had $500 saved, I had Krieger put a Krieger barrel on it. The very fist group out of it was 1/2 MOA. Since then, all my groups have been similar and sub MOA. Powder and bullet selection doesn't seem to matter, it shoots everything well.

I can tell you that in 10 years I spent more than $500 in powder and bullets and case prep than what the barrel cost.

Savage is great to re-barrel yourself. For example, ER Shaw sells kits for about $400 that includes barrel, wrench, go gauge, no go gauge. My one experience using ER Shaw resulted in a sub MOA gun.

My only er shaw is on my 10/22. Its a nice barrel and I would be willing to try others. My savages get shilen barrels but if you get a big name they are all good. Krieger, Douglas or many others are top tier.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I personally didn't get the best accuracy with H4350. That being said. It was very consistent in the size group it gave me in winter and summer. So I wasn't running 2 different loads.

 

[Blue68f100]

I've used both H4350 and Varget. Varget works better for the lighter bullets 130gr and less. H4350 is better for the 140gr ELD-M. The sweet spot for the 140gr ELD-M is 2700+ fps, 2725 in my ideal 24" barrel. They start opening up once I reach the 2740 fps. NO crimp, 0.001-0.002" neck tension. Mine are loaded to fit the magazine, max length it will allow. ELD's like to jump.

 

[bluejay75]

I think your barrel has a lot of good shooting life left in it. 4350 has a ton of proven loads in 6.5 CM. I would do that. If you have a surplus of Varget it shouldn’t be to tough to trade Gold for Gold.

The Timney Savage trigger is cheap and easy to install. Breaks clean like light bulb glass.

Clear it, work the bolt, dry fire it. If your bolt has play you can gain a little accuracy by having the headspace tightened up.

Check the torque on your action screws.

A combination of the above transformed my whole stable of Savages to .5 MOA shooters or better.

Last but not least…changing stocks and better glass helped too.

YMMV. Bluejay

 

[peels]

My experience with Varget and H4350 in 6.5cm with 140 ELD-M indicate that both powder are capable of accurate loads. During load work-up, Varget actually achieved the smallest 5 shot group (0.28" with Varget vs 0.32" with H4350 at 100yd). This is with a Savage model 16 action with a Criterion barrel.

As others have indicated, H4350 have higher velocity potential.

 

[Sniper66]

Here's my plan with your help, Thank you as always.
1. Clean my rifle and adjust AccuTrigger to <2lbs. and consider replacing it.
2. Check action screws
3. Check torque on scope screws.
4. Make more test loads with Varget, Nothing I've read or been told suggests that H4350 is any better. One of my 5-shot groups was 1.25", so I'll tweak from there. Will let you know my result in a few weeks. Many things are coming up that places this project on the back burner. I'll be in touch.

 

[AJC1]

Here's my plan with your help, Thank you as always.
1. Clean my rifle and adjust AccuTrigger to <2lbs. and consider replacing it.
2. Check action screws
3. Check torque on scope screws.
4. Make more test loads with Varget, Nothing I've read or been told suggests that H4350 is any better. One of my 5-shot groups was 1.25", so I'll tweak from there. Will let you know my result in a few weeks. Many things are coming up that places this project on the back burner. I'll be in touch.

Come up with an assembly procedure that you can replicate every time. I go finger tight front then rear. 20 front then rear then 40 front then rear. You can change the tune of a gun if you change your assembly procedure. When assembly is completed do the dollar bill test for float and interference.

 

[FROGO207]

I think your barrel has a lot of good shooting life left in it. 4350 has a ton of proven loads in 6.5 CM. I would do that. If you have a surplus of Varget it shouldn’t be to tough to trade Gold for Gold.

The Timney Savage trigger is cheap and easy to install. Breaks clean like light bulb glass.

Clear it, work the bolt, dry fire it. If your bolt has play you can gain a little accuracy by having the headspace tightened up.

Check the torque on your action screws.

A combination of the above transformed my whole stable of Savages to .5 MOA shooters or better.

Last but not least…changing stocks and better glass helped too.

YMMV. Bluejay

In my personal experience after owning a dozen or so Savage rifles the barrels that come stock on them are some of the most accurate barrels on a production rifle. A better quality trigger assy will help but breaking in a stock trigger with use helps a lot. Most of mine are pre accutrigger so barrel quality now I don't know.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Varget is less temperature sensitive, but my best load 6.5 load, with a 7.3 SD, is H4350. I found the 4350 better than Staball for the 6.5

 

[v8stang289]

I use H4350 in my 6.5 with 140's, and it shoots very well.
That said, you should be able to find a Varget load that your rifle likes. I use it in .223 and it's an accurate and consistent powder from my experience.
How far are you seated off the lands?
Have you done ladder testing?
find a node your barrel likes and fine tune from there.
The trigger pull may have a lot to do with it too. I know I have trouble being consistent with a heavier trigger.

 

[peels]

Varget is less temperature sensitive, but my best load 6.5 load, with a 7.3 SD, is H4350. I found the 4350 better than Staball for the 6.5

This blog post indicate H4350 is less temperature sensitive than varget over the temperature range tested. Both are considered to be very good with regards to temperature sensitivity.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/06/19/powder-temp-stability-hodgdon-extreme-vs-imr-enduron/

 

[AJC1]

This blog post indicate H4350 is less temperature sensitive than varget over the temperature range tested. Both are considered to be very good with regards to temperature sensitivity.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/06/19/powder-temp-stability-hodgdon-extreme-vs-imr-enduron/

By every test I've seen were talking about #1 and #2 so in that regard not a huge difference.

 

[jmr40]

Varget is my go-to powder for 308. But it isn't the best option for 6.5 CM with 140 gr or heavier bullets. Maybe with 120-130 gr bullets. H4350 is the gold standard for 6.5 CM and heavy bullets and my go-to powder option. But other powders with similar burn rates do well too. If you can't find H4350 try, IMR4350, IMR4451, Ramshot Hunter, Reloder 17 or 19.

 

[berettaprofessor]

This blog post indicate H4350 is less temperature sensitive than varget over the temperature range tested. Both are considered to be very good with regards to temperature sensitivity.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/06/19/powder-temp-stability-hodgdon-extreme-vs-imr-enduron/

Peels, both are supposed to be very good, and 4350 is better than most powders, I think, but when I was running some tests loads last winter, the Varget had much less change session to session than the 4350

 

[peels]

Peels, both are supposed to be very good, and 4350 is better than most powders, I think, but when I was running some tests loads last winter, the Varget had much less change session to session than the 4350

I don't doubt it. As a matter of fact, the data from that blog post indicate Varget had less temperature sensitivity when going from 25F to 65F. It was the temperature jump from 65F to 140F that H4350 showed to be better. Like I said, they are both top notch in terms of temperature sensitivity.

 

[Walkalong]

It was the temperature jump from 65F to 140F that H4350 showed to be better.

From 55 to 95 are the temps my buddy shot his 6 GT using H-4350 last year, and the velocity swing was around 50 FPS. Much better than my RL-15. That said, I have some of the new RL-15.5, which promises good things ("Ultra Temp Stable"). It has already proven it can be very accurate in 6 Dasher with low ES/SD numbers.

My last target after some load work, 4 shots each, 4 from the load in the other barrel with RL-15, and 4 from the new barrel with RL-15.5. Here I was checking numbers/accuracy, but was mostly looking to see how much the slightly slower burning 15.5 added velocity wise.

The long range crowd may be talking about RL-15.5 vs Varget vs H-4350 in the next year or so. Time will tell.