Vintage Colt Agent for CCW?

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.455_Hunter

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Our "bedroom gun" is a 60's vintage Colt Police Positive Special. My wife is completely familiar with this weapon and is very capable with it. She is about to get her CCW permit, and I am thinking about getting her a similar vintage Agent as her CCW piece. I understand this gun is not +P rated, but that is not a concern since there are several decent loads out there in standard pressure (Win 158 gr LSWC, Win 110 gr STHP, Hornady 110 gr FTX, Buffalo Bore Stuff) Assuming the gun in question checks out OK mechanicaly, are there any other concerns or comments about using a gun like this for CCW? Thanks!
 
The Colt Agent/Cobra is one of the finest revolvers ever made for CCW purposes imo. What's not to like about a revolver that weighs the same as a Smith Airweight and yet carries 20% more ammunition?
 
I have both Agent and Cobra and ...

I like them very much for conceal carry. You can use the Hornady critical defense ammo or the federal Nyclad and both are rated non +P but will expand and give adequate penetration.
 
I have a 1955 Colt Agent, and it's a great choice for CCW. (now if we can ever get legal CCW here in this state!) :)
 
Ala has a good point. I suggest that you look for a post 1966 Cobra, which is identical to the Agent except it has Police Positive Special sized stocks. If you want the shorter Agent stocks they will fit the Cobra. ;)
 
not again

both are rated non +P
*sigh*

Since there was no such thing as +Ps back when the Agent was made it was only rated for standard pressure 38 Specials.

Of course the standard pressure rounds back then generated higher pressure than the +Ps of today.

You can shoot all the +P out of your soon-to-be-acquired Agent that you want.

Avoid +P+ as there is no industry standard.
 
The use of Plus-P ammunition in older revolvers – especially those with aluminum frames can get controversial (and sometimes downright argumentative). Everyone has the right to an opinion, but mine – based on having done a lot of minor, and some major tune-ups on aluminum D-frame Colt’s – is it is best to limit the use to carrying and use standard loads for P&P (Practice & Play). The problem I think is that some Plus-P loads are toothless tigers, while some other go as far as they can get away with.

Now during the good ol’ days if your Colt lightweight got a bit loose and out of time, you could fire it off to a Colt Service Center or the factory for a quick and inexpensive (sometimes free) tune-up. However those times are long gone. The factory will still tune-up the revolvers, but it is seldom or ever free.

My pet 1950’s Detective Special (steel not aluminum) is still as vault-door tight as it ever was, and the timing is dead on, but it has seen very few rounds of anything labeled Plus-Anything, largely because I don’t see the need for it. Over the years I have depended on shooting skills, not some kind of security blanket in the form of ammunition. When I decided the circumstances called for something more powerful I exchanged the little Colt for something bigger.

But on this subject I am decidedly in the minority, which I think is because more and more people seem to need the security blanket, and warm & fuzzy feeling that a Plus-P label gives them.

Finely in passing, if you P&P with lead-bulleted ammunition you will save a heap of money over what the Plus-stuff costs, and lead bullets are easier then copper jackets on the bore.

If you buy a Cobra or Agent (or for that matter any similar Colt revolver) be sure that it’s tight and in time. If it isn’t it can usually be fixed, but getting it done is seldom cheap. Cosmetic wear, caused by carrying, not shooting doesn’t mean zip. If you take care of it you’ll find it to be a splendid little sidearm that you’ll treasure for a long time. :cool:
 
So Old Fuff...

If I understand your position on this, it is that "yes +P is wimpier than the regular ammo but it was hard on the guns and the gun companies asked the ammo guys to back off to cut down on repairs"

If this is correct (I hope so because I follow you around cyberspace and cling to your every word, occasionally throwing a panty like a middle age woman at a Tom Jones concert :eek:)

since the standard 38 Special ammo from the 50s is hotter than today's "+P" ammo are you saying that you support the "politically correct" neutering of the 38 Special cartridge?

And if the answer is yes, what do you think should be the upper SAAMI pressure for 38 Special?
 
As I tried to explain, some Plus-P ammunition is just a claim on the label, designed to make it sell. In today's market if the box doesn't say "Plus-Something" people won't buy it. On the other hand some stuff I've seen lives up to the reputation, and maybe then some. Regardless, using modest quantities won't hurt, but I think what it does best is build up the flagging confidence of some users. Hence my reference to a security blanket.

In my Detective Special I prefer a 158-grain bullet going at about 680 FPS out of the 2" barrel, or even 148-grain mid-range wad-cutter at about 600 FPS out of the same revolver. The crash you just heard was some of our more tactical members going into a swoon. :D Anyway, I told you my views weren't very popular.

But at close range these bullets will go deep enough, but not over penetrate under most circumstances. The recoil is light, recovery is fast, and subsequent shots can be both quick and accurate. I once had a friend tell me that he could "hit a man with his new gun that was standing in a doorway on the other side of the room," (wasn't a very big room either). I told him that was fine, "but at the same distance I could hit the door knob." :eek:

But by now somebody out there is sputtering, "YOU WOULD GO TO A GUNFIGHT WITH LOADS LIKE THAT!!? Well of course not. My idea of of Plus-P .38 Special is called a .357 Magnum - In a K or L-frame S&W with a 4" barrel, or maybe my little Taurus 445 chambered in .44 Special with a 2" barrel. Bullet expansion is a moot point because the bullet's expanded when it leaves the bore.

In the highly (very highly) unlikely event that I have to stop somebody who has intentions of doing something very bad to my frail old body, I don't think he'll notice if the bullet came out of a cartridge that was labeled Plus-P or not. :uhoh:

So far as older revolvers are concerned, why practice & play with more expensive Plus-P ammunition, that "might" loosen up the gun? You fail to understand that the Old Fuff is as cheap as they come. :evil:
 
The crash you just heard was some of our more tactical members going into a swoon

I might not ever throw a panty at you again

Then again my Dad (chief in the city I grew up in) always said that he was well armed with a 32 SW Long because of shot placement.

Now just to clarify (since you didn't answer my queries or my outrageous statement of adulation) you think that current +P as well as old style regular 38 Special are too hot?
 
+P or non +P in the Agent and Cobra ?

I have been shooting and carrying the little "D" frames for about 45 years and as been said above, there was no +P back then that I can remember. I have a chronograph and when they came out with this +P stuff I could not tell much difference in velocity at the time. At most , it was about 50 -60 ft/sec difference. I called Colt on more than one occassion about the use of it in these little guns and they were always most helpful . They were taking the cautious stand and recommended practice with regular standard load and carry +P. Now, if one calls them today, they will say do not shoot +P at all in the Cobra and Agent made before , 1 believe , 1982 or 1983. I was told that the quality of the aluminum -alloy frames was not as strong as the later guns and to be careful. I took their advice and used regular ammo in mine from that point on. That said, there are many new ammo choices today that will work very well in penetration and expansion in these older guns that are not +P rated, Such as Hornady's critical defense and the Federal Nyclads as well and some others too. I shot many times the old FBI load , 158 gr SWCHP in these guns without problems- but now at age 70, I am a little more cautious.
 
I can buy into much of what "OLDFUFF" is saying...

based on my own experience , the old FBI load is too much for these guns and the recoil excessive for quick followup shots as well. A steady diet of this type of ammo in these lightweight older guns is not good. I shot Hornady critical defense +P and regular 38 special in my Magnum Carry and found no difference in velocity on the chonograph recently. I practice with my own reload-- wadcutters and carry the non +P critical defense.
 
My guns are not "safe queens" thay are used and worn...

both at my farm range and on my farmland and adjacent lands for hunting. My pythons included.
 
Now just to clarify (since you didn't answer my queries or my outrageous statement of adulation) you think that current +P as well as old style regular 38 Special are too hot?

Ah, the eternal quest for a straight answer…

Going back to the 1950’s I have found that often there are disparities between what the ammunition companies print in their tables, and the performance one sees out of a particular gun – and this is especially true if you are dealing with a revolver with a (give or take) two-inch barrel.

Today, most of the larger manufacturers use barreled test fixtures that have strain gauges located at various points so they can measure chamber pressure and the pressure curve over the length of the barrel while using various combinations of powder and bullets. At the same time the velocity of the bullet can be measured at (whatever distance) using a chronograph. All of this can be very precise, but the data reflects what a particular barrel produces, and not necessarily what you will get out of a particular gun.

Now back when so-called “standard loads” were supposedly hotter ammunition companies didn’t always check handgun loads for pressure, and determined performance by shooting into 1” thick pine wood baffles to see how many were penetrated. The test fixture was a real revolver, often with a maximum length barrel to get the best results.

Then we have people that try to make a case by presenting data in various old and new reloading handbooks. All of this is interesting, but again the information has nothing to do with factory ammunition performance, and everything to do with what was worked up using a particular gun and barrel length with a certain bullet/primer/canister-lot powder combination.

Also the cartridge makers and handloading book writers during earlier days didn’t have to worry about some slick lawyer hitting them with a lawsuit because someone blew up or otherwise damaged Uncle Elmer’s old six-shooter that was made in 1903 – or thereabouts.

So now we have some who have chronographed some old and new ammunition and claim that the old stuff was hotter then current Plus-P ammunition. They may be correct to a point, but the old stuff may be better performing because of powder deterioration caused by the nitro component in the powder leaching out. Not much you understand, but just a little – but then maybe the stuff that was made back then was indeed hotter then advertised. Either way I wouldn’t bet on it.

As for today’s Plus-P stuff. Some of it is notable for being on the wimpy side, where others are indeed at the top of allowable standards. Shooting these loads EXTENSIVELY in an older aluminum-framed revolver might not be wise, and even questionable in one with a steel frame. One constant we can depend on is that with a little variance it takes a certain amount of pressure (force) to drive a bullet at a certain velocity. You can make the bullet go faster or slower by increasing or decreasing the pressure. Other factors don’t mean a whole lot if velocity is the main thing you’re looking at – or for.

If you are deeply concerned about all of this you need to get a chronograph for yourself and see what various ammunition (commercial or handloaded) does in your particular gun(s). If you want to say that Plus-P ammunition is safe to shoot EXTRNSIVELY in older handguns you need to know EXACTLY what pressures are being generated by the PARTICULAR ammunition in question.

The Old Fuff should make it clear that in his view the performance of older ammunition vs. today’s Plus-P doesn’t really impress him. In the real world it’s too small to make a practical difference. As always, bringing an attack to a quick conclusion is mostly dependent on bullet placement, and to a degree cross-sectional area.

But given what I have explained, the Old Fuff is not going to say that unlimited quantities of ANY Plus-P ammunition can be fired in ANY older revolver, without having possible negative consequences.
 
Well, I have a pre-72 example headed my way for a grand total of $327 with shipping and FFL transfer included. The gun supposedly is mechanically perfect, just holster wear- exactly what myself or my wife want for a real carry gun. I will let you know how it turns out... :cool:
 
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