unspellable
Member
Given a vintage 45-70 trapdoor, what factory loads would you use in it. Some of the modern 45-70 factory loads strike me as a bit spiffy for the old gal.
Vintage trap door question
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troy fairweather
Member
Remington used to have a 405 load but probably not now, I have a new rule for trapdoors black powder only not even 5744. It's so easy to load and and much cheaper then paying $50+ for a box off factory.
Retreever
Member
You DO NOT use factory ammo in a vintage/antique trapdoor, your best options are black powder or a black powder substitute like Triple7. I believe Buffalo Arms and a couple of other places in the USA sell black powder 45-70 cartridges if you do not reload.
Retreever
Retreever
There are either trapdoor only loads or trapdoor rated loads available. Most will have a 405 grain bullet.
Much like Troy, when I load for the trapdoor, either the big 50 or the smaller sibling, I use blackpowder. Most of my loads have used GOEX, 2f but some were GOEX 3f. Mark where the bare of the bullet about will be, fill with powder about 1/8 to 3/16 above that line. Weigh that charge! Now take that charge and you have a couple of options. I use a funnel about 1” above the case. I slowly pour the powder into the funnel, anywhere from 20 to 30 seconds from maybe a foot above the funnel. This allows the powder to swirl and settle into the case.
Another option is a drop tube, anywhere from 18” or longer. At the top of the tube is a funnel. A slow pour is good to allow the powder to settle and compact. There are other methods but those have worked for me. Now, these are HUNTING loads. Target shooters, especially long range competitors, tend to look askance at my technique. But, it works, for me.
Oh, the reason I weighed that charge? So I can make a scoop to pull that amount of powder from a bowl of powder when I am loading.
Are there other methods? Of course. This is what works, for me.
As for substitute powders, the are a variety of smokeless that can work and have worked for more than a century. I don’t use them anymore. The other BP substitutes, pyrodex, 777, etc are crap. Don’t waste your time.
Kevin
Much like Troy, when I load for the trapdoor, either the big 50 or the smaller sibling, I use blackpowder. Most of my loads have used GOEX, 2f but some were GOEX 3f. Mark where the bare of the bullet about will be, fill with powder about 1/8 to 3/16 above that line. Weigh that charge! Now take that charge and you have a couple of options. I use a funnel about 1” above the case. I slowly pour the powder into the funnel, anywhere from 20 to 30 seconds from maybe a foot above the funnel. This allows the powder to swirl and settle into the case.
Another option is a drop tube, anywhere from 18” or longer. At the top of the tube is a funnel. A slow pour is good to allow the powder to settle and compact. There are other methods but those have worked for me. Now, these are HUNTING loads. Target shooters, especially long range competitors, tend to look askance at my technique. But, it works, for me.
Oh, the reason I weighed that charge? So I can make a scoop to pull that amount of powder from a bowl of powder when I am loading.
Are there other methods? Of course. This is what works, for me.
As for substitute powders, the are a variety of smokeless that can work and have worked for more than a century. I don’t use them anymore. The other BP substitutes, pyrodex, 777, etc are crap. Don’t waste your time.
Kevin
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
Why only black powder? I have used 5744 with light charges and lead bullets for good results. I don't shoot mine much or often. Mostly have it just to have it.
troy fairweather
Member
That's why. Think the load was 23.5 or 24.0 grains of A5744 and the old 405 gr Missouri cast bullet.
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troy fairweather
Member
Edited ^^^
eastbank
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thanks for the info, the condition of the firearm before fireing would be important too. it may have not been safe to fire with any load from the start. all older firearms should be checked by a gunsmith versed in what to look for in older firearms. that load is well with in a safe load for a 45-70 trapdoor in good condition.
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Ugly Sauce
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The reason it is not a good idea to use "trapdoor safe" loads with smokeless, is because even if the pressure is the same, the pressure curves will be very different. Same with "substitutes". They may develop similar pressure, but not the same pressure curve.
On getting the full 70 grains in the case, the easiest way I have found is to compress it with a home made compression die. It is just a dowel with a .357 case on the end. Just set it in the case and run it into the bullet seating die. Black powder loads like to be compressed. For my Marlin, (I shoot black in it so that no smokeless loads get into my Trapdoors) I can get 80 grains into a modern case. I use the shorter Speer 400 grain JSP in it, which of course helps. If you can compress the charge with the bullet, without deforming it, you aren't really compressing it enough. Yes it will "work" and go boom, but you will sell yourself short on velocity and clean burning.
In my trapdoors ("vintage") I load the replica 405 grain bullet, 416 out of my mold) and 72 grains of 3fg.
My Carbine will do this at 100 yards, with that load. Again, a black powder cartridge likes compression. Even if you go with a lighter load, it should be compressed, with some wads to take up the extra space. Lastly, a cartridge rifle is not hard to clean. Not like a muzzle loader. Really only need to clean the bore. (but should pay attention to the chamber of course)
On getting the full 70 grains in the case, the easiest way I have found is to compress it with a home made compression die. It is just a dowel with a .357 case on the end. Just set it in the case and run it into the bullet seating die. Black powder loads like to be compressed. For my Marlin, (I shoot black in it so that no smokeless loads get into my Trapdoors) I can get 80 grains into a modern case. I use the shorter Speer 400 grain JSP in it, which of course helps. If you can compress the charge with the bullet, without deforming it, you aren't really compressing it enough. Yes it will "work" and go boom, but you will sell yourself short on velocity and clean burning.
In my trapdoors ("vintage") I load the replica 405 grain bullet, 416 out of my mold) and 72 grains of 3fg.
My Carbine will do this at 100 yards, with that load. Again, a black powder cartridge likes compression. Even if you go with a lighter load, it should be compressed, with some wads to take up the extra space. Lastly, a cartridge rifle is not hard to clean. Not like a muzzle loader. Really only need to clean the bore. (but should pay attention to the chamber of course)
Ugly Sauce
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Bingo! Give the man a cigar!
There is no safe smokeless load in the M1873 Springfield rifle.I personally wont use any factory smokeless ammo in a Trapdoor, or any of my other old single shot rifles.
But I do shoot ammo I load using smokeless powder all the time. I use 4198 as it gives loads well below trapdoor maximums and has a nice gentle pressure curve that's safe in even the weaker actions.
But I do shoot ammo I load using smokeless powder all the time. I use 4198 as it gives loads well below trapdoor maximums and has a nice gentle pressure curve that's safe in even the weaker actions.
Speedo66
Member
I think most standard pressure factory loads are Trapdoor safe.
I fired several boxes through an 1889 version with no adverse results, except in the Carbine I had they had a little more recoil than I was comfortable with.
I fired several boxes through an 1889 version with no adverse results, except in the Carbine I had they had a little more recoil than I was comfortable with.
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Just before the Spanish American War, the folks at Springfield were developing smokeless loads to be used in the Springfield Single Shot rifle, aka Trapdoor. They had gotten fairly well along but the outbreak of the war ended that project.
Prior to the finalization and adoption of the Krag rifle and carbine, Springfield needed to figure out the rifling for the 30 caliber barrel. Three Trapdoor actions were used to test over 100 barrels with different rifling patterns, twist, depths and anything else they could try. The loads used were the standard 220 grain jacketed bullet (cupronickel?) and the standard charge of smokeless powder. The actions performed admirably.
Kevin
Prior to the finalization and adoption of the Krag rifle and carbine, Springfield needed to figure out the rifling for the 30 caliber barrel. Three Trapdoor actions were used to test over 100 barrels with different rifling patterns, twist, depths and anything else they could try. The loads used were the standard 220 grain jacketed bullet (cupronickel?) and the standard charge of smokeless powder. The actions performed admirably.
Kevin
Some historic info for those thinking of loading black powder cartridges-
Review and know about "balloon head" cases. The originals for many black powder guns were made that way and that's why they can accept a full charge of black powder while a modern case with a solid web cannot
Review and know about "balloon head" cases. The originals for many black powder guns were made that way and that's why they can accept a full charge of black powder while a modern case with a solid web cannot
That has been disproved enough it is amazing folks still repeat it. Competitor routinely load MORE than 70 grains in modern cases.
Kevin
troy fairweather
Member
You can 100% load more powder into balloon head cases, the 55 grain carbine load is more power then many shoots need.
Ugly Sauce
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My Marlin loads contain 80 grains of 3fg in modern cases. My Trapdoor loads take 72 grains (by weight) of 3fg in modern cases. I doubt, but don't know, that factory black powder loadings were not compressed. The only way you could get a couple or five grains more in a balloon head case would be with non-compressed loads. I don't think the case capacity difference between a solid head and balloon case is "great".
If someone has both, it would be interesting if they would fill both to the brim, weigh them, and state the difference. ?? NO CHEATING!!!
If someone has both, it would be interesting if they would fill both to the brim, weigh them, and state the difference. ?? NO CHEATING!!!
Ugly Sauce
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Technically, you "could" load a little more powder in a balloon head case, but not enough difference to make a difference. I agree, for plinking, killing targets, gongs, or pop cans, milk jugs and water bottles, the carbine loads are fine. Or for deer hunting. But, one would still want some powder compression, and to take up the empty space with wads.
I have heard, and perhaps I have this completely wrong, that sometimes in the carbine loads a cardboard tube was inserted in the case, and the powder contained in that. ??
The Armory used three methods to deal with the Carbine load.
The first, was indeed a cardboard tube. Place in the case tight to the walls and the bullet was crimped as normal. To differentiate between the rifle and carbine loads, a C was stamped on the case head. The tube was not as pract as hoped.
Next they used several card wads between the powder and bullet. They still crimped the bullet in the same spot so they needed the C on the headstamp to differentiate between the rifle and carbine loads.
The third and final method. Someone decided to load 55 grains of powder into the case and seat the bullet down on the powder. This resulted in a visually different cartridge, shorter, so the C headstamp was no longer needed. This method simplified the loading process and became the standard.
Kevin
Ugly Sauce
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Very good. Interesting. I got nothing against the carbine load, but the rifle load, in my carbine does not bother me at all, so I've no reason to duplicate it. I'd feel perfectly confident deer hunting with it if I were ever to go back to hunting with any kind of cartridge rifle. For hiking, trekking, exploring, I do grab the carbine once in a great while, but in that case I really feel more warm and fuzzy with with the rifle load, in case I run into Mr. Grizz.
