Trap Door & Rolling Block

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Looking to the future - I hope :p , I would like some information on Trap Door and Rolling Block Rifles, particularly how they work ( pictures or websites) and what loads they use. It is a general question but I do like the looks of the Pedersoli Springfield Trapdoor and a few other or the Rolling Block pieces.

Waiting in anticipation :rolleyes:
Duncan
 
Do a Google on Springfield Trap Door

That will give you a start.

I didn't do one on RB's but I'll bet you get something

I like them both.
 
The "trap door" started as a means of converting the 1863 Springfield muzzle loading rifle into a breach loader that fired metallic cartridges. The U.S. government of course had hundreds of thousands of them sitting around at the end of the civil war, and dumping them to buy new cartridge firing rifles was not economical. There were several conversion methods tried, but they one that was most widely used (and the one used by the U.S. Army) was the "trap door" conversion. It consisted of slicing the top half of the barrel off for some distance forward of the breach, and hinging it. You could then flip it up and forward to expose the breach and insert a cartridge. You then closed the trap door to fire the weapon. A side mounted hammer struck a firing pin in the trap door mechanism, which transferred the blow to the primer of the cartridge. It was simple, robust and reliable.

The standard cartridge of the trap door rifle and carbine was the .45-70 "government" cartridge, a straight walled, rimmed cartridge. In typical loadings, it had a 405 grain .45 caliber lead bullet backed by 70 grains of black powder. .45-70 is still a popular and quite powerful cartridge. The trap door system is not exceedingly strong, however, so you need to be careful in reloading it with smokeless powders. The large volume of the case can pack enough nitro propellant to blow up a trapdoor.

The rolling block rifles were Remingtons. The breach block is on a pivot that rolls backwards and down to expose the breach (hence the name). To load, you cock the hammer to expose the breach block, roll the breach block down and back, and insert a cartridge. You then roll the breach block up to close the breach, and the rifle is ready to fire.

Both are fine rifles. The rolling block is a more robust design and can handle higher pressures. Both are limited in the length of the cartridges they can handle due to the design of the action. .45-70 is about the longest cartridges that can be made to fit, unlike the Sharps falling block design that will take much longer cartridges like the .45-110.
 
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Actually you can fit quite a bit longer cartridge through the rolling block if you relieve a groove in upper edge of the breech block. There's quite a bit of overlap, and careful relieving will not weaken the action any and allow you to fit cartridges in the .45-90 length range. Some relieve is necessary sometimes even with the .45-70/.38-55 cartidges with longer OALs due to the use of spire pointed bullets.

I've got a 22" rolling block made by Pedersoli in .38-55 with a light weight contour round barrel. It is a real tack driver with the Lasercast RNFP bullet, a .38 caliber lubricated wonder wad over 52 grains (by my measure) of Pyrodex P and a Federal match grade primer. Typically at a 150 yards (the longest de facto range I've set up at my parents in the country) it'll shoot a 2.5" group of 100 shots with no cleaning at all during that string.

The Rolling block is a very simple action, and is quite easy to tear down to clean. One screw, two heavy pins and you can remove both the breech block and the hammer block for cleaning.
 
A Sharps is not at all like a Martini-Henry. All Sharps except the 1878 Sharps-Borchardt are external hammer guns with straight falling blocks. The Martini-Henry is hammerless and the block rocks down. The earlier Peabody was a hammer gun with the basic rocking block. Peabody was not happy the best known version went by the name of the designer of the striker firing system (Martini) and the designer of the rifling pattern (Henry) and he got no credit for the basic design.

I am not aware of a Rolling Block made for paper cartridges as early Sharps were.

Suggest you get a copy of Single Shot Rifles and Actions by the late Frank DeHaas. Available various places, but I'd get it from his family at:
http://dehaas.com/guns/
 
Think of the Sharps as a cannon breech.

Ah! another piece I am interested in, the Sharp falling block, is that a bit like a Martini Henry action?
Duncan

The Sharps Model 1874 receiver has a loading channel cut through it that allows a straight-in path for loading cartridges, once the breech block has been lowered using the trigger guard lever. (Much like the modern Ruger #1 action) Hence, cartridge length really isn't a limiting factor, and one can find Sharps rifles in straight wall .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, and .45-120, as well as the .45 bottlenecks and longer .50 caliber numbers.

Here's a shot of the Sharps breech with the breechblock down, showing the loading trough and open breech:

16518875PkMeRKzihs_ph.jpg


My own Sharps 1874 Business Rifle, as shown with long-range Creedmoor sight, in .45-70, I run Goex FFFg or Cartridge black powder behind a 500gr spitzer:

sharps1874bench.gif
 
A few years back I traded a 1880s era parlor guitar for an original 1873 Springfield Trapdoor along with the bayonet & scabbard. I believe it was last modified to use smokeless at the armory sometime in 1878. Great rifle plus if I happen to make a bad shot I can fix bayonet and finish the job.:p
Never regretted that trade. I know the fellow that got the guitar has hurt a bunch more people with it than the old rifle ever did.
 
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Great rifle plus if I happen to make a bad shot I can fix bayonet and finish the job.
Never regretted that trade. I know the fellow that got the guitar has hurt a bunch more people with it than the old rifle ever did.

He was lucky you didn't trade bagpipes!!

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Can you still get Gras rifles in France?

Yes BUT! Very hard to find and if in good condition, then VERY expensive I believe.

Duncan
 
U.S. "Trapdoors"

Just to add a little to what has already been posted about "trapdoors".

The first conversions were the Model 1865 done as described above and used a .58 Rimfire cartridge. Only a few were made as the Civil War (how is a war 'civil'?) was winding down.

Then the Army changed to a .50/70 centerfire cartridge and used a .50 liner for the old .58 barrels. These were often referred to as "Second Allin Conversions" and designated Model 1866. They did see action on the frontier including the "Wagon Box Fight" near Ft. Phil Kearney in 1867. There followed newer models that used new breeches and later new barrels with only a few parts used from old Civil War rifled-muskets.

In 1873, the U.S. Army adopted the .45/70 cartridge and the Model 1873 rifle which was made from all new parts. The 'trapdoor' mechanism stayed in service until the smokeless powder Model 1892 Krag-Jorgensen rifle in .30/40 Krag was adopted. The old 'trapdoors' remained with the militia for several years to the extent they saw service in the Spanish-American War and Phillipine Insurection through the early 1900s. NO models of the 'trapdoor' were ever made or 'modified' to use 'smokeless' powder! These days we do use very mild smokeless loads in our old trapdoors but caution is the rule.

The American "trapdoor" action is hinged at the front and flips forward like a trapdoor, hence the nickname. If you want to see them in action in a movie, watch "Springfield Rifle" with Gary Cooper. It is historically inaccurate but does showcase the trapdoors in action.

One note on the original loading for the .45/70 is that the government cartridges were folded head copper cases which would 'stick' in a hot breech. The small extractor would tear through the soft rim and a case would be stuck in the chamber. For the Infantry, they just pulled the under barrel cleaning rod and knocked it out. The Cavalry had no such implement. Soldiers were commonly advised to carry a cheap knife to help pry the stuck case from the chamber. One account of the Little Bighorn Battle had two of Reno's officers occupied during their seige on the ridge using the wooden 'barrack's rods' to clear carbines with stuck cases.

And a few comments about the Martini-Henry action:

The Peabody and the later Martini-Henry action hinged at the rear and the front of the breechblock was dropped for loading. The block then made a nice loading ramp. It was probably the most efficient single-shot action developed in the 19th Century (my own opinion). It had a large and sturdy extractor unlike its U.S. counterpart. However, the British, like the U.S. had to 'monkey' with the ammunition. The .577/.450 MH round was first loaded in what is best described as a composite case. It had a proper solid head but the body was sheet brass coiled around the head to make the case. After extensive firing without cleaning, the head would sometimes extract without the rest of the brass, rendering the rifle unusable. The British finally went to a drawn brass case to cure their otherwise fine design's ammunition problems. I had a M-H for awhile and a full power load was brutal but could have probably dropped dangerous game with no problem. Some of the stories from the Rorke's Drift battle tell of the soldiers, after firing constantly all day and part of the night, no longer being able to hold the rifle to their shoulders. They had tried switching shoulders during the day but by the end of the battle both were sore. They resorted to bracing the rifle against anything else in firing to avoid the recoil. Only an extremely well designed single-shot rifle could have sustained that rate of fire for such a long period. All the soldier had to do was keep stuffing cartridges into the breech, no delays reloading magazines or clips were required.

I apologize for the length of my post but I love these old rifles. I have an 1873 Springfield and a Martini-Enfield in .303 British. They are fun to shoot and harken back to the "Age of the Rifle" when small lines of men stood their ground against great odds and won the day. No matter the sins of the governments that placed them in that position, the soldier had to survive by dent of a good supply of ammunition, discipline and "pluck" to see the next sunrise.:)
 
"NO models of the 'trapdoor' were ever made or 'modified' to use 'smokeless' powder! These days we do use very mild smokeless loads in our old trapdoors but caution is the rule."

I was wondering about that. The guy I got the rifle from said something to that effect but I've never wanted to use smokeless in it anyway. I wonder what the 'modifications' if any were?
 
History Nut

A very interesting piece, thanks.
I used to own an original WW Greener GP Martini action 12g shotgun which had a 32" barrel. In 'Turner Team Shoots' ( a set number of clays between 2 people without calling for them ) I could usually get off more shots than a double barrel gun and hit more clays. A beautiful action and very accurate.
Duncan
 
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Cap N' Ball

I am not sure what "modifications" the person referred to are either.

Again, there were no modifications to make the rifle compatible with "smokeless powder". I did read in one source that when the Army was testing the first loadings of what would become the .30/40 Krag cartridge, they used a rebarreled trapdoor action. It was bench-mounted and remotely fired so I guess they weren't worried about catastrophic failure! Amazingly it did hold together which speaks more for good craftmanship than potential for use. This is NOT recommended! In other words: "don't try this at home".

Like all military rifles with a decent length of service, there were quite a few modifications to improve on the intitial design. My M1873 has its original features which is why I bought it. Around 1875, there were several improvements designed that were applied to earlier rifles sent in for repair/overhaul. One example is the breechblock. The original 1873 block has a "high arch" base while the 1875 and later block is fairly flat along the bottom. Also, all blocks after 1873 deleted the firing pin return spring as it was found to be unnecessary. The firing pin was quite loose in the block so did not need a spring to hold it away from the primer as the block was closed. The sights were changed often. There were also some models that were built with a 'rod' bayonet rather than use the older spike design.

The steel was never upgraded to double heat treated and the action design is considered weak so only black powder or substitute should be used in loading. Besides, the smell of sulfur is part of the fun, right?;)

Although I have used light smokeless loads, I want to emphasize caution if that path is chosen. Only use lead bullets as jacketed ones will wear the bore quickly.

One observation on bayonets: All my U.S. spike bayonets from original Civil War through the trapdoors have unsharpened edges to the blade. They are strictly a stabbing weapon. My original Martini-Henry bayonets, although a similar pattern blade, have all three edges sharp. One can cut oneself by slicing the blade accross flesh (now PLEASE don't ask me how I know!:eek: ). The British bayonet could be used both to stab and slice (OWW!:cuss: ).

These old rifles are fun to shoot and display but need care and respect. I know a lot of the U.S. trapdoors ended up being used in movies to substitute for muzzle loaders and received rough treatment. In the 1980s, a friend took me to a movie gun prop house that had bins of 1866 and 1873 Springfields piled on top of each other for movie rental. The 1866 models often had prop 'flintlocks' attached to them so they would look right in a pre-metallic-cartridge era movie.:eek:
 
The rolling block is supposed to be the superior weapon.

Trap doors use a slug of metal that flips forward or to the side, and has a built in firing pin, offset to the side so the hammer can hit it, or in the center and a hammer that has a striker that arches over to be in the centerline of the rifle.

im_trapdoor1_00011_a.jpg

image004.jpg

Rolling blocks have two wheels that overlap. They both have halfmoon cutouts where they overlap (so technically they actually don't overlap at all), so that one, and only one can rotate at a time. On top of the front wheel is a breech block with a built in firing pin, and on top of the second wheel is a hammer. You cock the weapon, and then you can open the chamber by rotating it down into the cutout on the hammer's wheel. This makes it so you cannot fire the weapon. That hammer has nowhere to go forward.

Load a bullet and but the breach block back to be closed. The hammer can now fall forward when you pull the trigger, but as soon as that happens the breach block cannot rotate because the wheel under the hammer is now in the way.
 
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