Are there any volunteer firefighters who conceal and carry? Does your department have a policy regarding Being on scene with a firearm? This is not an issue for me because I live in Illinois but if things change here I would like to know ho other departments approach the issue.
Volunteer firefighter and Conceal and carry
- Thread starter gfpd707
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Not Hired ON Yet, But
I haven't been hired on by a department yet, but my understanding is that most of the departments don't like CCW. Well, more like they are OK with CCW, just not in their ambulance or engine.
I think some of the career guys might be allowed to if they want to, but as a volunteer, chances are they aren't going to let you. If you're a respond from home volunteer, and you forgot to take the J-Frame out of your pocket before you arrive on scene, I don't think you'd get chewed out too bad, but I wouldn't recommend trying it.
For outside the ambulance, law enforcement and running away are always an option, and for inside, your paramedic can chemically restrain somebody.
Sorry that I don't have any facts or resources you can check out. This is mostly opinion and common sense, but I hope it helps.
I haven't been hired on by a department yet, but my understanding is that most of the departments don't like CCW. Well, more like they are OK with CCW, just not in their ambulance or engine.
I think some of the career guys might be allowed to if they want to, but as a volunteer, chances are they aren't going to let you. If you're a respond from home volunteer, and you forgot to take the J-Frame out of your pocket before you arrive on scene, I don't think you'd get chewed out too bad, but I wouldn't recommend trying it.
For outside the ambulance, law enforcement and running away are always an option, and for inside, your paramedic can chemically restrain somebody.
Sorry that I don't have any facts or resources you can check out. This is mostly opinion and common sense, but I hope it helps.
First let me state I am not for carrying while working for the fire department. A gun under your turn out gear would most likely be fine. If it ever got hot enough to burn you you are probably in very bad shape.
W.E.G.
Member
Possession of an unauthorized firearm while on duty (career or volunteer), and at any time on workplace premises, was grounds for dismissal when I was a Fairfax County EMT.
No guns were ever were authorized except for two or three guys who served as medics for the SWAT team.
Rural one-engine departments probably have no policies beyond "Don't show up drunk to drive the fire engine."
No guns were ever were authorized except for two or three guys who served as medics for the SWAT team.
Rural one-engine departments probably have no policies beyond "Don't show up drunk to drive the fire engine."
irishelcid
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i always tossed my gun in the glove box when i got to the station. there is no way i would want to be worrying about my gun underneath turn outs and SCBA while in a fire.
In many places its illegal to carry in hospitals, making it difficult to carry on EMS calls. Also in my experience whenever we have calls that sound even remotely dangerous, or come out as "man down" or "unknown chief complaint" we are met on scene by several police units, so any hostile people are managed by the police. In my company we are prohibited from carrying any type of weapon, with the exception of our disaster response team (think hurricanes), in which everyone is armed, or stays close to someone who is.
For disasters it is not explicitly stated that we are approved to carry, but no one says anything, as even the people in charge are usually armed.
For disasters it is not explicitly stated that we are approved to carry, but no one says anything, as even the people in charge are usually armed.
Thank you for your response. I don't think it would be appropriate to carry while responding to emergency calls I was just interested to see if anyone did. My department also has police assist if the calls sounds at all suspicious. Although recently we had a call at a local bar for a man who had fallen. It turns out he had fallen after being hit by a baseball bat. Needless to say it was not exactly a safe scene. Since I live in a rural area it took 15 minutes for police to arrive.
Firespecialist
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No, we do not allow carry on scene or on property unless you are L.E. These are some of our reasons:
1. You have a radio. It is not your emergency. If things look like they could go south, retreat and set up staging. Get on the radio and get L.E. on scene.
2. What if you are on a scene and a person sees your gun? What if that person is an anti? Now you have created another problem. You never know, it could happen...
3. Most EMS units do not allow guns on the cars nor are guns allowed on the premises of a hospital. If you have your gun on you and you do patient care to the hospital, you then may be breaking the law.
4. If you were to use it as self defense, it would be most likely be impossible to prove self defense against a hurt/sick patient to a jury.
5. I wouldn't worry about things getting warm, but I do have to say, I think just about any gun would be uncomfortable under your P.P.E.
We are in a relatively small community. In the past 5 years, I have never once thought I would need a gun on scene. The people that give L.E. problems always seem to like it when we show up, anyways.
1. You have a radio. It is not your emergency. If things look like they could go south, retreat and set up staging. Get on the radio and get L.E. on scene.
2. What if you are on a scene and a person sees your gun? What if that person is an anti? Now you have created another problem. You never know, it could happen...
3. Most EMS units do not allow guns on the cars nor are guns allowed on the premises of a hospital. If you have your gun on you and you do patient care to the hospital, you then may be breaking the law.
4. If you were to use it as self defense, it would be most likely be impossible to prove self defense against a hurt/sick patient to a jury.
5. I wouldn't worry about things getting warm, but I do have to say, I think just about any gun would be uncomfortable under your P.P.E.
We are in a relatively small community. In the past 5 years, I have never once thought I would need a gun on scene. The people that give L.E. problems always seem to like it when we show up, anyways.
One more question for ems providers in carry states. How do you handle a situation where the patient is carrying? If the patients injuries dictate that you need to remove their clothing or parts of it due to trauma how do you handle this? If law enforcement is around you could have them take control of the weapon but what if they are not present. I have never had to deal with this before because I live in Illinois. The closest I came was a rifle that was lying in the back seat of a truck after a mva but I simply told the officer and he took it.
^ I've been on the other end of that.
I had an episode of severe heat stroke. I'm no medical guy, but considering how bad I felt I feel glad to be alive. BP 55/30, heart rate near 200, with short, rapid, and excruciating breathing. My loud moaning with each quick breath was completely and utterly involuntary. Having no control of the sounds you make is a very odd feeling.
I was armed, and I had no ability to form a single word. They discovered it when lifting my shirt to put some kind of wire on my chest inside the ambulance. I could tell it made them uneasy, but they didn't do anything about it. My recollection is pretty vague, obviously.
They pushed me into the ER on the stretcher, and treated me as if it were not there (so it seemed). After I began to stabilize a little, a hospital security officer came in and carefully removed my weapon, and explained what he was doing.
Two hours and 5 IV bags later, I was as good as new, except serious muscle soreness from all the cramping, especially in my mid-section and back muscles. This hospital was on a college campus, and my weapon was held by the campus police. I returned the next day to get it. I assume hospital security gave it to the campus cops.
I had an episode of severe heat stroke. I'm no medical guy, but considering how bad I felt I feel glad to be alive. BP 55/30, heart rate near 200, with short, rapid, and excruciating breathing. My loud moaning with each quick breath was completely and utterly involuntary. Having no control of the sounds you make is a very odd feeling.
I was armed, and I had no ability to form a single word. They discovered it when lifting my shirt to put some kind of wire on my chest inside the ambulance. I could tell it made them uneasy, but they didn't do anything about it. My recollection is pretty vague, obviously.
They pushed me into the ER on the stretcher, and treated me as if it were not there (so it seemed). After I began to stabilize a little, a hospital security officer came in and carefully removed my weapon, and explained what he was doing.
Two hours and 5 IV bags later, I was as good as new, except serious muscle soreness from all the cramping, especially in my mid-section and back muscles. This hospital was on a college campus, and my weapon was held by the campus police. I returned the next day to get it. I assume hospital security gave it to the campus cops.
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Gouranga
Member
That sounds like a reasonable and professional response right there. I would think particularly for rural departments that they could come up with some specific training/certification for fire/ems to carry on the job. Not to act as cops or anything but to protect themselves and their patient. I know out where my mother lives, the cops are going to be 15-30 minutes tops and there will be maybe one or 2 car who will be able to respond within that time period with 1 cop per car.
They are easily outnumbered by less reputable folks with guns especially with the Meth labs out there. I can see the risk though, you are trying to treat a patient, or put out a fire, I could see a number of situations where a firearm would pose a level of complication that a department would not want to deal with.
I agree - they handled it perfectly. Very professional, even though some of them were very uneasy about the presence of the gun, and understandably so.
I don't know how it would have gone over in a bigger city, though.
I could see a hospital somewhere actually trying to prosecute you for carrying on hospital property, even if you got there by ambulance.
I don't know how it would have gone over in a bigger city, though.
I could see a hospital somewhere actually trying to prosecute you for carrying on hospital property, even if you got there by ambulance.
Our SOP for someone with a weapon it to either have them disarm, or to disarm them if they are not able to do it themselves (read: unconscious).
This applies even to Police officers, either as patients, or as passengers assisting with an unruly patient. the only exception is a patient, under arrest, in hard restraints, then the police can carry. the officers are told to give their guns to their partner, or I'll put it in an outside compartment for the trip.
So if you were carrying I would ask you to (Depending on where you were when we found you) leave it at home or in your car/ give it to a trusted friend or loved one on scene/ give it to the police/ put it in a bag and allow me to put it in an outside compartment on the ambulance and then I'll give it to hospital security to put in their gun safe until you are discharged.
Any of these is acceptable, if you are unwilling, you are welcome to sign a refusal of care and we will be on our way.
When I find a weapon on someone who is unconscious, I remove it, in its holster (if applicable) and put it in a bag with the rest of their valuables, wallet, glasses, crackpipe, etc). We need to do a physical exam on patients who are unconscious, this requires that we cut off your clothing, so hopefully you are not wearing your new, expensive belt and holster, as they very well might be returned to you in pieces.
I'm sure some will complain, saying that it is a violation of 2a rights, it is unfair, etc. but that is the way it is for a reason. Many people who are injured or sick are not capable of making rational decisions, and sometimes procedures are done in the back of an ambulance that are frankly downright painful, but can save your life. No one needs to be shot by someone waking up post accident/ loosing consciousness due to a heart arrhythmia, etc. who thinks I am killing them while I am really trying my hardest to save their life.
This applies even to Police officers, either as patients, or as passengers assisting with an unruly patient. the only exception is a patient, under arrest, in hard restraints, then the police can carry. the officers are told to give their guns to their partner, or I'll put it in an outside compartment for the trip.
So if you were carrying I would ask you to (Depending on where you were when we found you) leave it at home or in your car/ give it to a trusted friend or loved one on scene/ give it to the police/ put it in a bag and allow me to put it in an outside compartment on the ambulance and then I'll give it to hospital security to put in their gun safe until you are discharged.
Any of these is acceptable, if you are unwilling, you are welcome to sign a refusal of care and we will be on our way.
When I find a weapon on someone who is unconscious, I remove it, in its holster (if applicable) and put it in a bag with the rest of their valuables, wallet, glasses, crackpipe, etc). We need to do a physical exam on patients who are unconscious, this requires that we cut off your clothing, so hopefully you are not wearing your new, expensive belt and holster, as they very well might be returned to you in pieces.
I'm sure some will complain, saying that it is a violation of 2a rights, it is unfair, etc. but that is the way it is for a reason. Many people who are injured or sick are not capable of making rational decisions, and sometimes procedures are done in the back of an ambulance that are frankly downright painful, but can save your life. No one needs to be shot by someone waking up post accident/ loosing consciousness due to a heart arrhythmia, etc. who thinks I am killing them while I am really trying my hardest to save their life.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
gfpd707,
Many years ago (mid to late 1970s) in the small-town Alabama department I volunteered with, those of us who had concealed carry permits often carried while on rescue runs. Often enough there was some sort of violence involved as a reason for a rescue call in the first place, and there were very few LEOs on duty most of the time. It was also likely we might beat whatever LEO was en route to the scene.
Several of us also rode reserve with the local PD, and some of the local LEOs also volunteered with the FD as well, as was typical in a lot of small town/rural departments then- and likely now as well.
I don't recall anyone on the department ever asking questions or raising objections, but that was long ago and far away...
lpl
Many years ago (mid to late 1970s) in the small-town Alabama department I volunteered with, those of us who had concealed carry permits often carried while on rescue runs. Often enough there was some sort of violence involved as a reason for a rescue call in the first place, and there were very few LEOs on duty most of the time. It was also likely we might beat whatever LEO was en route to the scene.
Several of us also rode reserve with the local PD, and some of the local LEOs also volunteered with the FD as well, as was typical in a lot of small town/rural departments then- and likely now as well.
I don't recall anyone on the department ever asking questions or raising objections, but that was long ago and far away...
lpl
unfortunately I fear that was long long ago in a... wait, that is something else...
I don't think that would fly many places today. I personally don't have a problem with it, but I know many will.
I've even been accused of carrying against company policy by someone who would have liked to seen me fired. It never went anywhere, as it was complete BS. but still.
I don't think that would fly many places today. I personally don't have a problem with it, but I know many will.
I've even been accused of carrying against company policy by someone who would have liked to seen me fired. It never went anywhere, as it was complete BS. but still.
Ive really emjoyed this thread. Thanks to all the EMTs out there doing a tough job.
For any level of PPE approaching Level B or supplied air, CC just doesn't seem practical to me.
to NOLAEMT: You commented about removing the gun and placing it in a bag with the rest of the patient's belongings. Do you/may you check the status of the gun? Are you allowed to check it/clear it and declare it safe befoere you bag it? Just curious...
For any level of PPE approaching Level B or supplied air, CC just doesn't seem practical to me.
to NOLAEMT: You commented about removing the gun and placing it in a bag with the rest of the patient's belongings. Do you/may you check the status of the gun? Are you allowed to check it/clear it and declare it safe befoere you bag it? Just curious...
Thanks to everyone for you responses. I thought that departments in carry states would not allow you to carry while responding but I wanted to see if there were any exceptions. Also thanks for commenting on patients carrying. This is not an issue for me here in illinois but it might someday.
to NOLAEMT: You commented about removing the gun and placing it in a bag with the rest of the patient's belongings. Do you/may you check the status of the gun? Are you allowed to check it/clear it and declare it safe before you bag it? Just curious...[/QUOTE said:
No, no, no, no, no.
I am a fulltime Paramedic, part time fireman, former volunteer FF, and will be starting with a career FD in Fla next week.
It is all the same, NO!
We are not LEOs. Your job is safety, incident stabilization, and property conservation.
We have neither the training, nor authorization to carry a firearm on duty.
If you are a volly, leave it in the glovebox.
Paid? Leave it in the glovebox.
I am a fulltime Paramedic, part time fireman, former volunteer FF, and will be starting with a career FD in Fla next week.
It is all the same, NO!
We are not LEOs. Your job is safety, incident stabilization, and property conservation.
We have neither the training, nor authorization to carry a firearm on duty.
If you are a volly, leave it in the glovebox.
Paid? Leave it in the glovebox.
Skinny Guinea
Member
I know in minnesota this is true, don't know about anywhere else but out there their police are paramedics, which i thought was a great idea, so for instance in an alcohol related mva they may serve double duty, but on more hairy scenes, and even during the transport it must be comforting to have them around
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