VT gunman fired 170 rounds in nine minutes: Cops

[grampster]

Early on in this thread, motive was brought forth as a question. Why did this creature do this?

He's mentally ill. His brain is misfiring. There is no logic to be discovered. There was no reasoning. He was mentally ill. Reason and mental illness are at opposite poles.

 

[Geister]

I don't think it lasted over 15 minutes, whited. The police could realistically respond in under 20 minutes. But the reality is that Cho was already dead by the time they pulled up.

 

[hotpig]

I'm just using the times that I read on this post. Lets assume a 911 call was turned in within seconds of the rampage. Lets assume the 911 call went to the right 911 center and the police were dispatched.

If all of that happened in less than one minute I would be surprised. Heck, it would darn near be a miracle.

The first Officer arrived on the scene in three minutes of dispatch. That is a very good response time by car or foot.(I worked campus security for two years.)

If everything was perfect a minimum of four minutes had passed by now. This is just the first arriving Officer outside of the locked down building.

The time line looks like the nut did himself in either when he heard sirens or when he heard the chains on the door being taken out. This is a speculation and if you add .95 with it you can get a cup of coffee at the quick shop.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Nine minutes?

Is that nine minutes EXCLUDING reloads?

From witness descriptions, he left a room, was gone a while, then came back. Don't know if he was reloading or shooting fish in a different barrel.

Motive?

It doesn't really matter.

Because, by the time he made up his mind to do the deed, he had already decided that

1. they are all out to get me;
2. they are all Martians and I have to get them first;
3. glory is everything, and killing/dying is how you get it;
4. there's no point to life, so it doesn't matter who else I kill before I check out;
5. they are all out to get me;
6. I hate everyone, and I'll make them sorry;
7. I am Shiva; fear me;
8. they're never going to let me win; I'll never break even; they won't let me out of the game;
9. this is really the most effective way to verify my thesis in Sociology, so this will guarantee me an 'A' in the class;
10. they are all out to get me.

A guy who's seeing Martians doesn't need a motive as we would understand it.

 

[JohnBT]

Earlier I said it was a half-mile from AJ to Norris if they went cross country across the Drillfield. That was an obscure joke. It's a long way if you have to drive it and dodge pedestrians. AJ is in the upper left; Norris is circled.

At least now they have sidewalks across the Drillfield. It was more the Mudfield many days way back when.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

He's mentally ill. His brain is misfiring. There is no logic to be discovered. There was no reasoning. He was mentally ill. Reason and mental illness are at opposite poles.

While on one hand I agree, its also important to realize that even crazy people have reasons and motivation. It's easy to explain away anyones actions by reason of insanity, but more often than not, this resolution robs us an understanding which can help us deal with an enemy in the future. Terrorists are insane to everyone, except terrorists, and a huge segment of people known as 'sympathizers'. Heck, Republicans are insane to Democrats and vice versa. Rosie O'Donnel in insane to me, Hitler was insane to most people, except neo Nazi's and misinformed white supremacists. So what I am getting at is that a discussion of possibilities, or influences at least, is better than a simple declaration - "He was insane, that's all."

In my opinion of course.

ST

ps - still wanting to know why ISMAEL AX was on his arm anyway.

 

[#shooter]

Maybe I'm completely wrong it just seems like this could have been handled more swiftly.

This business that the police got there too late is not accurate. There is at least one video that shows the police taking cover at or near Norris and you can hear gunfire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSbZmd-l8n8 In the video you see the police taking cover and not advancing. To say “it was over by the time the police got there” is not entirely accurate. I don’t blame the police for taking cover, but to make it seem like they were rushing the building as fast as they could is not true at least in this video.

 

[RNB65]

I don’t blame the police for taking cover, but to make it seem like they were rushing the building as fast as they could is not true at least in this video.

I think you're only seeing a very small piece of a very large incident. Not every cop on scene made a head long rush towards the doors of Norris Hall. Some went into the building to go after the shooter and the rest setup a perimeter around the building in case the shooter (or shooters) tried to escape. The incident is going to be analyzed with a find toothed comb and at some point in the near future we'll know exactly what everyone did that morning.

 

[Lucky]

I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that the police couldn't track down and stop this guy in under 10 minutes They were on campus they knew right where the guy was. They say it took them 5 minutes to get through the chained doors, maybe its just me but that seems like more time than it should take. They also claim it took 3 minutes to get the building where this guy was, I know its a big campus but didn't any of them have cars?

Time to learn the facts. If you pay attention you'll see police officers tell you the truth, flat out. Dispels the mystique:

I want to do my job, and go home safely

Period. Read what you want out of that, but it's just the plain truth. Everyone has priorities. Their job is not to protect you, that's just something that the politicos say when they send them to disarm you. Main job is to obey what politicos say to do, investigate crimes that have happened, apprehend suspects, accommodate the judicial system, and when time permits uphold the law ie 'serve and protect'.

If there's a maniac trying to break your door down and kill you, you'd better not be expecting help to rush in on a white stallion, because that's not going to happen. Your well-being is important, it's just not most important. No-one is going to care about you like you.

 

[Checkman]

Cop Bashers don't care about facts or why we (the stupid cops) do things the way we do. You can talk facts and have them attend training until you die of old age and it won't matter.

They're like the anti's. They live in their little bubble and will absolutely not consider anything that could break that bubble. :banghead:

And the wheels on the bus go round and round......

 

[LaEscopeta]

Some went into the building to go after the shooter and the rest setup a perimeter around the building in case the shooter (or shooters) tried to escape.

This is certainly the proper procedure and what the police should have done. Right now I’m not seeing evidence that this is not what the police did, so I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and am assuming they did everything right. Of course it is a free country, and in the absence of evidence you can make the opposite assumption and choose to bash the cops.

(Also of course, all we know now is what the news media is saying the police and witnesses told them, plus a few video and 911 call clips. In previous cases like this much of what got reported early turned out to be false.)

 

[JohnBT]

I would like to answer the question about why it took so long for the police to break through the chained doors. Take a look at those doors.

 

[JohnBT]

And the windows, being narrow and sturdy, would have slowed them down as well. I believe they also have an insulating pane mounted on the inside, but I'm not certain. A first-floor Norris classroom.

And a different room, 110, containing a biomechanics lab.

www.biomechanics.esm.vt.edu/msbiolab/Facilities/Equipment/Low_Back.jpg

Oops, way too big to post here, but a good view of the windows.

 

[Checkman]

Oh ouch. Good logical points.

All Cop Bashers you just ignore those. Why I have it on good authority that the Brady Campaign, VPC, and the Democratic Party will pay $1,000,000.00 to police daprtments who respond tragically late to an Active Shooter.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY.

:banghead: :banghead:

Okay I feel better. Sorry - well not really.

 

[whited]

.

If you pay attention you'll see police officers tell you the truth, flat out.

coffee -> screen

 

[tmg19103]

Motive

As to why he chose that building or that time, we will never know.

This guy was psychotic. He rambled on in his recordings that he didn't want to do this, but he had to. For all we know, he had a class in that building and thought all the students were out to get him. Perhaps he thought aliens told him to commit the murders in that building. I don't think you will be able to pick up any patterns as I'm sure one person's insanity is vastly different than that of another. No doubt his insane mind felt wronged and the only answer in his deluded state was to shoot up this one buidling for what ever reason. Perhaps it is as simple as it was a building in the middle of campus that was furthest from police. Perhaps it had the fewest doors that were the easiest to chain shut. Perhaps he just knew the building because he took classes there. Perhaps is was random. Whatever reason - this was one sick dude. He didn't even know the first poor girl he killed in her dorm. No doubt with her he imagined some rebuff or took a liking to her and realized she would never like him.

Sadly, the motive is lost in his psychotic mind. He had no real reason to kill all the people, and as for why he chose that one building, it was either random, or the only positive that can come out of it is that the building made for an easy target and you then learn how to make buildings like that safer, BUT even then any lunatic with a gun won't be stopped. That then leads into the whole arm the faculty/students argument that the public is pretty much against.

 

[hotpig]

This thread will be locked by the moderators at any time. The other cop bashing thread like this was. It went from just a good old fashion bashing to down right idiocy by the bashers.

Kind of like debating guns with Ultra Liberal Dems. No rational thought can be found in their side of the debate.

 

[JohnBT]

I just watched the cell phone video - again - and it certainly does show police officers moving to the building. Whether they were the first to approach that door isn't clear, but they weren't hiding behind anything after they grabbed their gear.

John

 

[whited]

.

The cop-bashing is dumb, but its equally dumb to assert that cops are above
scrutiny or criticism, and that they always tell the truth. That needs to be
pointed out, apparently. Neither point of view is accurate or constructive.

 

[Lucky]

Why the cop bashing? The only way that could happen is if people somehow get the wrong impression of what the police response will be? The average officers on this site are very straight-forward, they explain straight-up that their #1 priority is their own safety. That's perfectly rational for any human being, no shame in that.

And that's why average citizens should adopt the same outlook - because in real life there is no Bruce Willis or Keanu Reeves who's going to swing through a window and rescue you. They're going to wait for the shooting to stop, and then do their job of investigating, apprehending, and bringing to court of justice the suspect(s).

The officers on this site don't say, "Police will always protect you." That's what politicians and police Chiefs say, and they only say it because they want to disarm you.

I think that 'mixed message' may be why you see some behaviour that could be interpreted as 'bashing'. It's because people don't have an outlet to communicate with the Chiefs of police (who actively work against citizens), and mistakenly direct their comments onto regular officers (who hopefully support citizens).

 

[Tob]

What type(s) of clips did he use in the Glock? Has that been covered on this/another thread yet?
-Tob

 

[Flyboy]

According to other threads, at least one (and probably more) of his mags was a 33rd mag originally intended for a Glock 18, but compatible with the Glock 19 Cho used. I don't know what he used in the P22 (though I'd guess the standard 10rd mags), and I don't know what, if any, other mags he used in the Glock.

 

[MJZZZ]

No cop bashing here, but I'm always going to carry because no one can ever predict when a nutjob like this will snap. The police station is over 12 miles from my house, and the action would likely be over before they arrive.
Has anyone determined what exact ammo the shooter used? Mike

 

[Sistema1927]

There sure seems to be a lot of "Monday morning quarterbacking" here (and other places on the net).

Here is what happened: A crazed killer chained doors shut, and then spent nine minutes shooting unarmed victims before killing himself. Police officers never had a chance to respond prior to this event coming to its quick and grisly end.

As a result: You are crazy if you think that it is the responsibility of anyone other than yourself to protect you or your loved ones.

 

[ilbob]

There sure seems to be a lot of "Monday morning quarterbacking" here (and other places on the net).

It is the favorite sport of Internet denizens.

Here is what happened: A crazed killer chained doors shut, and then spent nine minutes shooting unarmed victims before killing himself. Police officers never had a chance to respond prior to this event coming to its quick and grisly end.

I find it very hard to blame anyone other than the guy that pulled the trigger for what happened. It is difficult for me to understand the mindset of a guy whose mental processes are so twisted that he would do such a thing, but these people exist. In fact, a whole religion is based on them, and you can bet they are studying this incident and will improve upon what happened when they strike a school. They do not care if they survive the attack either. Lack of interest in personal survival is what makes these kind of attacks so deadly and impossible to stop.

As a result: You are crazy if you think that it is the responsibility of anyone other than yourself to protect you or your loved ones.

While it is true, it seems those we have given the sacred duty to help us in this quest are actively working against us in our endeavor to stay safe.