VT Shooting-a Missed Opportunity

[.45&TKD]

Based on this account, I think the best opportunity to take out the killer, was when he was coming through the door. They had advance warning before he came to their class room. The shooter was most vulnerable to a hand to hand attack when he was pushing his way through the door. Dropping to the floor when Cho started shooting through the door was the "missed opportunity".

One guy to the side of the door, one guy to the other side of the door, would have been a good strategy when they let him through.

Even if untrained, men in this age group are in their prime. I think this illustrates that fighting back would have been a better choice.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18183450/site/newsweek/

other students were trying to barricade the classroom door that for some reason wouldn't or couldn't lock. "After that, I saw bullet holes start coming through the door," Goddard said. "It looked like he was trying to shoot the lock out. When he started firing at the door, I hit the floor."

After a few seconds, Cho came into the room. Goddard, his view of the classroom door partly obstructed by a desk, got his first glimpse of the killer. "He had on boots, dark pants and a white shirt. All of the students were on the ground, and he just started walking down the rows of desks, shooting people multiple times. He didn't say anything. He didn't demand anything. He was just shooting." The 911 operator was still on the phone, and Goddard, not wanting to draw attention to himself, dropped it to the floor. A girl named Heidi picked it up, begging the police to hurry. But it was too late, and Cho turned toward them. "I think he heard the police on the phone," Goddard said. "He shot some people near me, he shot the girl across from me in the back. Then I felt a very forceful rush of air and a pinch or a sting in my leg." Goddard felt himself flinch when the bullet hit him, but he did his best to stay still, to play dead. "Nobody tried to get up and be a hero," he said. Then the shooting stopped.

Goddard resisted the urge to move or try to look around. "I thought he was still in the room." Soon the gunshots started again, back out in the hallway; other sounds in the classroom were now audible. A few students were calling out to each other, Goddard said. ........

Suddenly, the classroom door burst open again. The killer was back. "He came back in and started going around the room again, shooting people." Up one aisle and down another, Cho moved through the room, repeating the path he had taken the first time. When the killer reached Goddard, he felt two more bullets punch into his body, one in the shoulder, and one in his buttocks. "My chest and torso were kind of underneath a desk, that's why I think I got shot in my extremities,"

 

[spencerhut]

Ive got to agree. Even if fatally shot, a brave person with their mind set on saving lives would have been able to get the bastard down before bleeding out (unless head shot). Others behind the person that sacrificed himself should be able to subdue the person. This is actually a scenario my wife and have discussed if we we are ever caught cold at close quarters and don't feel either us us can get to our carry piece fast enough. Not a situation I'd ever want to be in, but we've talked about and know how to act to make sure at least one of us makes it out alive. Last ditch, never want to be in the situation.

 

[BullfrogKen]

We don't know that anyone didn't, and got shot for it.

Its easy to Monday Morning Q-back this. Its not fair to the victims to do it until we know more about what happened.

 

[marksman13]

The simple fact is, all of these people were at a serious disadvantage because they weren't allowed to carry. I sweated nervously through all my classes Wednesday, and I am sure I will do the same tomorrow. This has made me much more aware of my surroundings. I promptly entered all my classes Wednesday and looked for primary and secondary egress routes, areas of cover and concealment, and talked to other guys in the class to form a plan of action in case of a similar event. I also started carrying a second knife. May not be much but it is better than my hands and a spare ensures that I won't be the only person "armed".

My greatest fear is that someone will copy this. Terrorists all over the world and are more than willing to carry out suicide attacks. When they see the terror this created.... It really scares me to think how much worse this could be if it were four or five gunmen cooperating through a phone call or text message. A couple of folding stock AKs and extra mags stuffed into a back pack.... sends chills down my spine. Situational awareness is the key, along with a good plan of action, but a CCW would definately help tip the scales in favor of the sheep and shepherds and away from the wolves.

 

[MudPuppy]

Or if he'd have locked the dorm doors at night and used a couple of gallons of gas. Yes, things can always be worse.

I agree it's inappropriate to judge what those students did or actions they may or may not have taken.

It is worth careful consideration for future situations. I'd sure rather think about something like that and discuss it now rather than on the fly in a moment of crisis. This will happen again--I hope we can learn from it given enough examples of it.

 

[telomerase]

Five years before, there was a similar situation at another VA college. This is what happened.

 

[Soybomb]

We don't know that anyone didn't, and got shot for it.

Exactly, I'd rather not speculate on the victims actions or inactions and would rather wait until we know more about what really happened in the class rooms. I've seen reports of at least 1 person other than the Israeli gentleman going after the shooter and being killed for his attempt. I think its too early and the events just too unknown for us to say what happened or what should have happened.

I would say though that I think perhaps we do have a mindset advantage in that while I'm sure everyone would fear the prospect of getting shot, we also probably don't see handguns as the unsurvivable instant death ray that alot of people think they are. We know shot placement is important, alot of handgun wounds are survivable, people that do get shot with handguns often have alot of fight left in them. Perhaps just knowing that a handgun wound might just give you that sting described in the report above would give a person the courage to be more offensive and less submissive. Maybe firearms enthusiasts wouldn't feel so hopeless against a handgun and would be more aggressive because of that.

 

[John Hicks]

The more details that come out, the more it's clear:

he got many by surprise
he organized his movement to minimize the chances of heroes (hallway reloads, hit-move-hit)

The early accounts of the line up against the wall and executions with no resistance are turning out to be false. People were scattered and either wounded or dead before they could do anything. In the path of the tornado.

You never want to be caught flat-footed; let's face it -- unless you are ready to pounce and standing right by the door, someone barging in and shooting will always get the drop on you.

The real heroism are the people that bought time for others to escape like Librescu. It's all he could do, it's all he did do, and people survived because of him.

jh

 

[.45&TKD]

I'd rather not speculate on the victims actions or inactions and would rather wait until we know more about what really happened in the class rooms.

Actually, this thread is about this first hand account of a student that was at the door when the gunman was trying to get through, and the student stopped and hit the deck when the shooter started shooting through the door. The student and others missed the opportunity of going hand to hand when the shooter forced his way through the door; instead waiting on the floor to be shot, in turn.

 

[mr.trooper]

the impression i got was that some people from every room survived.

If someone tried to tackle the gunman we would know about it by now.

two guys tried to hold a door shut and an old man stood up to him and allowed others to escape. Everyone else went into a panic and a lot of them died because of it.

 

[Mannlicher]

.45&TKD, great analysis. Now do you have a plan to end Global Warming?

 

[BullfrogKen]

mr.trooper said: If someone tried to tackle the gunman we would know about it by now.

No, that's not true. Many reasons exist that can explain why details don't come out of events like this until after the passage of time.


.45&TKD, well then I guess those young men and women just weren't as hard charging as you.

 

[.45&TKD]

.45&TKD, great analysis. Now do you have a plan to end Global Warming?

Already have. There isn't any.

.45&TKD, well then I guess those young men and women just weren't as hard charging as you.

This is the "Strategies and Tactics" section?
The strategy of laying on the floor and hoping the crazed gunman would just go away was not effective.

 

[Run&Shoot]

Yep, it is impossible to devise a strategy. Just give up and hope for the best. None of us have been in a classroom. This type of event has never happened before. First hand accounts are not enough to speculate on how we might be able to do better in the future. Never have several unarmed victims with less than SEAL training ever overcome one or more killers. Flight 93 never happened, the jet probably ran out of gas.

Nothing to learn here, mere citizens, move it along!

Just in case someone here wants to mull over what can be learned and brainstorm a better response (without disparaging the hallowed memory of the VT victims, of course!). BTW, I am not suggesting that I would have the presence of mind to do any better, but I would prefer to walk through options and arm chair strategize so that if I am caught in a similar circumstance I have some better idea of how to respond

- One simple though perhaps not optimal strategy would be a response of massed aggression. Assuming there are 20 students per classroom and half are guys (this was the engineering and German classes) it would seem that in the second and third classrooms there would have been a good chance that out of ten guys at least 5-6 would make it through alive to subdue him.

- The absolute worse strategy is to huddle together behind unlocked doors. Why are they trained to respond with passivity in the face of an armed attacker? This should not be a freakin' earthquake drill.

- What about everyone in the classroom pushing and throwing desks and chairs against the doors to secure them? All I have read is that one or two students or teacher tried it, with some success, but one or two were not enough to keep the killer out. Would it have worked to have ten desks piled up and ten guys pushing back against it?

- I like the idea of trying to ambush him when he bursts in as well. 2-3 guys on each side of the door coming from opposite direction should be able to over power him.

One thing I learned in wrestling and football, and later in life conflicts, is that if you are going to confront an aggressor then you better do so with utmost aggression and determination to go all the way with him. No halfway response. Bad guys have no sense of "giving up" just because you temporarily gain a superior position. They will cheat, distract and do whatever they can to regain the advantage and will not care one iota about you or the rules of fairness. Pacifism is no way to confront evil on the hunt.

What in the world are we teaching our kids that their instinct is to cower for 15 - 20 minutes while over 100 shots are fired (that is at least four reloads for each handgun) and 32 individuals are killed and many others wounded? I find it hard to believe that if 50 of the folks on THR were chosen at random that you would not find several that would instinctively fight back whether they had specific training to do so or not. As another poster stated, it is about the mindest of whether you are a victim or a fighter.

Hopefully the 32 lives at VT that were lost will not be in vain if others can learn a better strategy to respond and prevent such large scale murder in the future. That would be a tribute to them.

 

[Soybomb]

All I have read is that one or two students or teacher tried it, with some success, but one or two were not enough to keep the killer out

I think you need to wait longer and get more information before you say these people cowered and gave up. I don't think the documentation available is good enough to do this fairly yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_Shooting#Resistance
It looks as though as more details are coming out we're seeing more reports of attempted assaults on Cho and more barracading of doors.

 

[Jeff White]

There won't be anymore judgments made. There is not enough information. When there is enough information to discuss what actually happened and what could have been done differently we will have that discussion.

The next person to infer or suggest that the victims were cowards or that our society is composed of sheep instead of men because no one disarmed the scumbag, won't be here to have that discussion.

Jeff